HomeCruising Conversations

for use by members exchanging cruising information

Schengen for Non-EU residents Messages in this topic - RSS

Hasbun
Posts: 42


11/3/2017
Hasbun
Posts: 42
Hello David,

I am not convinced a 6 months in 12 accepted rule exists in the UK. I do believe frequent visitors who stay lengthy periods (within their approved leave to stay) will be subject to increased scrutiny upon further entry applications, and probably at some point subjected to issuance of abbreviated leaves to stay or flat out denied further entry. Certainly anyone engaging in so-called "visa runs" will be detected and probably banished for 1 to 10 years from further admittance into the UK.

But I don't think anyone will be penalized for staying the number of days that their stamp reads.

On another subject, the Greenland situation may arise as a result of the Nordic Passport Union (NPU) agreements. Another possible byproduct of the NPU is the following:
  • Citizens of certain countries are entitled to stay in Denmark for 90 days, regardless of stays in other Schengen countries

    Citizens of Australia, Canada, Chile, Israel, Japan, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore, South Korea and the US can freely enter and stay in Denmark for up to 90 days in any 180-day period, regardless of whether they have stayed in another Schengen country prior to entry into Denmark. The 90 days are counted from the entry date into Denmark or another Nordic country. If you have previously spent time in Denmark or another Nordic country within the previous 180 days, that time will be deducted from the 90-day maximum.

  • Source: Danish Immigration Service -
  • https://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/coming_to_dk/visa/Visa_free_travel.htm


So you see, the Danish (like the Dutch) allow you an extra 90 days beyond Schengen, but for the purposes of determining "how long you have been in Denmark", they consider the territory of Denmark to include all Nordic countries, and quite probably the Faroes and Greenland as well.

Cheers,
0 link
David.Frost
Posts: 3


11/3/2017
David.Frost
Posts: 3
Hello Dick and thanks for the info.
Hasbun. We fully concur with Dick on the matter of 6 months entry in the UK as an Australian non visa holder . 6 Months entry was granted to us in Shetland by a visiting immigration official. (We emailed before we left Norway.)
We were also treated with every courtesy by Customs and Immigration when we were boarded in Dover Strait, and when we discovered we had not completed entry requirements properly on our entry into Ireland from Azores. We received inaccurate advice but kept a record of times and places at which we received that advice. They "fixed" the problem, supplied the proper paperwork and completed it all at their office forwarding copies by email as our printer was not working at the time. Above and beyond the call of duty!!
All in all the Uk is very straightforward and easy. With 6 months in 12 being the accepted rule.
The Schengen countries are the real issue with 90 days during any 180 day period being the rule.
There seem to be a lot of misunderstandings, both by travellers and officials, and rule breakers as a consequence of the apparent fluidity of the application of the rules.
Then I read with interest the problem Destiny has just encountered in Greenland. Its not even Schengen and they seem to be applying the 90 days in any 180 days in Scandic Countries (this includes Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Faroe and Iceland) rule there too.
We are, as Australians, able to take advantage of a separate agreement between Australia and the Netherlands which permits us to stay in the Netherlands for 90 days after our Schengen period of 90 days expires, so long as we have not entered Netherlands during that period. (This would start their clock)
It is all very confusing and requires a lot of close clock watching to remain strictly legal.
Good luck
Kris n David




Hasbun wrote:
Hello David,

Assuming everything looks alright, a non-visa-required foreigner is usually granted leave to stay of 6 months in the UK on initial arrival.

However, when we arrived in the Isles of Scilly in 2015 and called the National Yachtline to report our arrival, we were granted admission in the UK and yet our passports were not stamped. So, if one does not have evidence of how long one's leave of stay is, how can one substantiate the legality of one's stay? We only stayed in the UK for a few days before sailing for Brest.

Did you get stamps on your passport when you arrived in Shetland? How long is your leave of stay?

Cheers,

OH
At anchor, Marmaris
0 link
Dick
Posts: 225


11/2/2017
Dick
Posts: 225
Hi OH,
Whenever we entered UK and got stamped, the stamp said “Leave to enter for 6 months, employment and recourse to public funds prohibited”. We never questioned that we could then stay in the UK for the next 6 months. We left and returned often and considered the clock started whenever we returned and received this stamp. We did not do what might be called “visa” runs: taking the train to Paris for the weekend for ex., and getting a new stamp upon return. We did not need to. The only time official eyebrows were raised was, as reported in the earlier post, an official commented that we had been in Europe a long time, but she was referring to Europe (including the UK) and not just to our time in the UK.
I would not want you to feel I have answered your question definitively, as I am no immigration lawyer, and I am clear that if an official wants to find transgressions, they will never have a difficult time of it. I answer from the shoes of one who has done a lot of traveling, tries to follow all the rules, but who also tries to keep a low profile and not gather any attention.
I hope I have answered your question. Come back if I have missed something.
My best, Dick

--
Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
0 link
Hasbun
Posts: 42


11/2/2017
Hasbun
Posts: 42
Hello, Dick,

Yes, we are agreed anyone overstaying beyond the standard 6 month "leave of stay" (which is what the Brits call the everyday permission to enter), like the unfortunate Aussie, should expect no flexibility at all.

The rules are crystal clear: one cannot overstay even one day beyond the day for which leave has been granted. The penalties are severe.

The question is different. Are they counting days across separate trips and calculating a 180 day maximum?

For example, you arrive 1 January and stay until 30 April (4 months).
You leave.
You arrive back 1 October. You attempt to leave 25 December (2 months, 3 weeks).
You have now stayed 6 months + 3 weeks in one 360 day period.
This is calculated at your point of departure, with the following consequence:

===> You are deported on 25 December and banned from visiting the UK for 10 years <===

This is the proposed scenario. Does not look right.

Cheerio,
edited by Hasbun on 11/2/2017
0 link
Dick
Posts: 225


11/2/2017
Dick
Posts: 225
Hi OH,
As said earlier, we were in and out of the UK over 5+ years and deeply appreciated the ability to be out of Schengen and to stay for 6 months. We were quite respectful of the UK’s rules and never explored any status that would allow us to stay longer than 6 months as we always flew home mid-winter for a couple of weeks and, even when sailing UK waters, managed to get across the channel for a while every summer.
We know of one Aussie who, when he returned to the UK, had it discovered that he had been in the UK more than 6 months when he had departed a few weeks earlier and he was denied entry and returned home for 3 months. We were never inconvenienced but were told sternly at one airport return that we had primarily been in European and UK territories for a long time and we should consider a new visa. We did nothing and continued in and out without further comment for 2-3 more years.
My experience is that UK officials take their rules seriously. That said, I believe port officials operating out of the Hotline understand our particular travel plans/history better and that airport/large ferry immigration officials are the most rigorous and least likely to cut any slack (makes sense, how many cruisers can they encounter and our passport history has got to be unusual and unusual = suspicious). That said, at any time one can draw an official who has gotten up on the wrong side of the bed.
I have no info on Leaves of Stay and have not heard of same. I have personal contacts that can facilitate your stay at SKD a great deal and will likely have more informed answers than I which I will send you if you contact me off-line.
I hope this helps, My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

--
Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
0 link
Hasbun
Posts: 42


11/2/2017
Hasbun
Posts: 42
Well, hello Dick!

I'd love to hear your comments on your stays in the UK, as we are going to be wintering at St Katharine's as well. We stay aboard year-round and usually don't go home (people come and visit us).

So, what are your thoughts on the British issuances of leave of stay? David Frost is of the opinion the Brits follow a strict 180 days max stay in 360 day period rule.

I, on the contrary, believe they don't want us to establish residence and certainly will be extremely strict and severely punish leave of stay overstayers, and certainly scrutinize entries and eventually deny admittance to people who come in repeatedly for lengthy periods, as they rightly should, but I don't think they are counting 180 days across separate entries.

What do you think, based on your experience?

OH
edited by Hasbun on 11/2/2017
0 link
Dick
Posts: 225


11/1/2017
Dick
Posts: 225
Hi OH and David,
I was in and out of the UK for 5+ years (US flag) and used the hotline most every time. They would sometimes send someone to visit us personally, sometimes we had to request it as we preferred to get the actual stamp in our passports that we had cleared out of Schengen visa territory. (I assumed they kept records that would pop up if there was the need to track us in the future and we had finessed the actual stamp-getting.) They were always very accommodating and for the 3 years we wintered over on St. Katherine Docks, they came to us, as we called in from anchorages. As for Shetland, we did not use the hotline as the port Authorities would call immigration/customs, a very pleasant official who would come to the boat. The UK with its 6 month visa and the UK being not a part of Schengen played a huge part in allowing any reasonable cruising of Northern Europe. This is aside from being wonderful cruising grounds itself.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

--
Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
0 link
Hasbun
Posts: 42


11/1/2017
Hasbun
Posts: 42
Hello David,

Assuming everything looks alright, a non-visa-required foreigner is usually granted leave to stay of 6 months in the UK on initial arrival.

However, when we arrived in the Isles of Scilly in 2015 and called the National Yachtline to report our arrival, we were granted admission in the UK and yet our passports were not stamped. So, if one does not have evidence of how long one's leave of stay is, how can one substantiate the legality of one's stay? We only stayed in the UK for a few days before sailing for Brest.

Did you get stamps on your passport when you arrived in Shetland? How long is your leave of stay?

Cheers,

OH
At anchor, Marmaris
0 link
David.Frost
Posts: 3


10/25/2017
David.Frost
Posts: 3
Hello all and thank you for this discussion. I am following with interest.
We arrived in Ireland after an Atlantic passage in 2016. Cruised the south coast and then wintered the boat in Netherlands. We returned to Australia for 5 months.
This season April to July we rushed round madly trying to see Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Sweden and Norway before finally bolting to Shetland to get out of Schengen within the 3 months allowed.
Now we are cooling our heels in the UK for 3 months to before we can return to Belgium, where we will do the 3 months we are allowed then we bolt to the Netherlands.
I have confirmation from the Dutch Consulate that Australians are allowed 3 months in Netherlands upon entry not withstanding time spend in other Schengen areas. You may not arrive in Netherlands at any time previous to this or the 3 months will start ticking and does not stop.. So when we are done in Belgium we go to Netherlands but may not enter any other Schengen areas in this time because technically our Schengen visa is expired.
This agreement with Australia pre dated Schengen and the Dutch seem to be the only country still honouring this agreement.

The UK only allow 6 months in any 12 and we don't want to use our next 3 months because we need to get out of Schengen again in April and wait 3 months to go back and cross Biscay.

How complicated can it get. Plenty of people say just ignore it but its just to stressful wondering if the next uniformed officer on the dock is coming to your boat to deport you or worse.

I am very interested to know if there has been any progress on the Touring Visia discussed in this thread earlier.

cheers all and thanks
Taipan
0 link
Hasbun
Posts: 42


10/8/2017
Hasbun
Posts: 42
Kingsley Ross wrote:
Ted - while it is not on your radar we just received our Italian Type D visas via the Miami consulate. It only about a week for them to issue it. They had no problem with us living on our boat.



I would like to report that U.S. acquaintances had their "elective residence" Italian application locally denied this week because authorities in Italy did not find a marina address as suitable for this type of application.

I do not know if what our acquaintances call Italian "elective residence" is equivalent a French Type D Long Term Schengen Visa good for one year that we first obtained at the French consulate in the U.S. and then "confirmed" on arrival in France through a process involving the local immigration ministry.
edited by Hasbun on 10/8/2017
0 link
Daria Blackwell
Posts: 707


6/16/2015
Daria Blackwell
Posts: 707
This discussion taken from the OCC Facebook page provides helpful information.

Felicity Critchlow
2 hrs
We are currently in Stavanger, Norway. This was our port of entry from Peterhead UK. The PO, Eoin Robson has been great and answered many of our questions. One thing which lead to confusion though was the official entry procedure. Not more than 5 minutes after we had tied up at the Oil Museum, two very friendly customs officials arrived. They had been tracking us on AIS at the airport, about 15 km away. They glanced at our passports and asked a few friendly questions and we 're done. Being a little concerned about the informality, we asked about stamps in our passports to validate our stay in Schengen. They told us that the police do stamps but it wasn 't a big deal and not to worry. Well, I worried because we were headed south to several other countries and feared that the attitude might not be so casual. We walked the couple of kilometres to the police station. After taking a number and asking about the stamp, the man at information had to go to the immigration department for an answer. No we don 't do that, maybe at the airport but I really don 't think it is necessary. Well for 144NOK we enjoyed the bus ride out to the airport. The helpful policewoman explained that yes, we had done the right thing. It was necessary to get a stamp in our passport as we entered Schengen territory. Yes, we probably would have encountered a problem if anyone had checked. She also explained that while we do not have to check into each country, we do have to check out of the last Schengen country we leave, stopping the clock and perhaps leaving us days to come back if we had not used all 90 days. This may not be news to more experienced cruisers but we found it confusing trying to find answers. Apparently this is confusion about the police is only in places where there is an airport, Otherwise the local force takes care of it assuming it is an official port of entry.
Unlike · Comment
You, Agustin Martin and Eoin Robson like this.
View 2 more comments

Eoin Robson The difference is that when you arrive from a non-Schengen EU country (currently only Ireland and the UK) by commercial air or sea transport to a Schengen country, the passport is inspected by the police visually but not stamped (assuming you 're an EU/EEA citizen).
45 mins · Edited · Like

Pete Jobson Thanks for the clarification Eion. I wonder how many people must be flouting this rule through ignorance? Certainly me!
53 mins · Like · 1

Eoin Robson I could confuse you even more Pete, if I explain that Norway is in the EEA, is in the Schengen and not in the EU. This means your passport is not inspected by the police when arriving in Norway from the EU (except when arriving from UK/Ireland), but nonetheless you must go through customs (be it through red or green). Iceland is the only other country that falls in this category.
48 mins · Edited · Like · 1


Eoin Robson Referring to "flouting the rule by ignorance," I guess it would be difficult for the Schengen authorities to prove that you did not get your passport checked if you arrived in France (Schengen area) by your boat from the U.K. because EU passports are n...See More
June 16 at 5:16pm · Like

Daria Blackwell Felicity Critchlow, have you filled in the Schengen survey? It would be helpful if you have not yet. I am also copying this discussion onto the Forum so we don 't lose it.
June 16 at 5:29pm · Like

Kingsley Ross I had a similar experience last summer on the way up the Rhine (to the Black Sea via the Danube). Knowing I needed a stamp since since Hungarian would likely look for one as we cked out of Schengen, we had to go to an airport to get it. It cost 100€ by taxi but the Hungarians did look for so it was money well spent.
June 16 at 6:25pm · Edited · Like

Gus Wilson We were first told in Norway we did not have to do anything re chekcing in, other than a phone call when getting close to Tanager. The guy on the phone asked what size our boat was, and when told, said you are too smal lfor us to worry about. Welcome t...See More
June 16 at 10:53pm · Like · 1

Eoin Robson Presumably you were in Stavanger too Gus at one point? I 'm guessing as you mentioned Tananger (the nearby port).
June 16 at 11:05pm · Edited · Like


Niki Phillips Have fun in Norway Felicity Critchlow; we hope to follow in your wake next year
23 hrs · Like · 1

Felicity Critchlow Daria Blackwell yes I have filled in the survey. I hope it will make some impact. Gus Wilson I agree that most officials don 't seem to care. The police officer at the airport indicated that the area served by the airport, including Tanager I would thin...See More
16 hrs · Unlike · 1

Eoin Robson Yes, when we fly from Norway (a non-EU Schengen country) to Denmark (an EU Schengen country), we must clear customs but our passports are not checked. In principle we are allowed to go through the Schengen without our passports. Only Norway and Iceland are non-EU Schengen countries.
15 hrs · Like

Gus Wilson Felicity Critchlow I suspect you will have an equally hard time finding anyone in Sweden to clear you in customs. First time coming from Norway, we went to the ferry terminal and had them stamp a paper someone had given us, and our ship 's papers. But ti took two trips to the ferrry terminal, separated by an hour in the police station with friendly policemen who made calls to figure out if we needed to do anything, and the answere was no. But that year we wanted documentation of when we returned to the EU, and finally the person at the counter in the ferry terminal shrugged her shoulders, and said sure.
2 hrs · Like · 1

Daria Blackwell Good luck finding a customs/immigration agent in Ireland (EU non-Schengen). The Garda (police) handle immigration but only on a part time basis. Westport, for example, has an agent here once a week. Customs, though listed officially in Westport, is in Castlebar, 30 miles inland. It hasn 't been in Westport since the turn of the century. That 's why we 've just written a book, Cruising the Wild Atlantic Way, which explains all this about sailing in Ireland.

There is a new EU funded initiative called the #EUCoolRoute that is just getting off the ground. It is to develop a cruising route from Cork in Ireland to Norway. I am involved in it accidentally because of the book but I think the OCC can play a major role, and this EUCoolRoute may be a way to push through a long-term travel visa. I have just emailed the contact information of the people involved in Norway to the POs up there. I am in touch with the core organizer in Cork. I will take it up with him. If we can show that it is economically critical to lift travel restrictions to make the CoolRoute viable, then we will have an EU economic initiative behind it.

--
Daria Blackwell - Rear Commodore, PR Officer, Editor OCC Digital Comms & Port Officer, West of Ireland s/v Aleria http://www.coastalboating.net
0 link
Daria Blackwell
Posts: 707


6/14/2015
Daria Blackwell
Posts: 707
As of 14 June 2015 we have 111 responses. This is a great response but more are needed to make the survey credible so if you haven 't completed it, please do. To date 61% of the respondents are still cruising Europe and 88% were required to leave Schengen countries earlier than they wanted because of visa restrictions.

--
Daria Blackwell - Rear Commodore, PR Officer, Editor OCC Digital Comms & Port Officer, West of Ireland s/v Aleria http://www.coastalboating.net
0 link
Daria Blackwell
Posts: 707


6/6/2015
Daria Blackwell
Posts: 707
Your help is needed with this important Survey

OCC Member Kingsley Ross has created a survey to help gather data on the effect of the Visa restrictions on cruisers in the Schengen area. Please take a few moments to fill out the survey by following this link.

--
Daria Blackwell - Rear Commodore, PR Officer, Editor OCC Digital Comms & Port Officer, West of Ireland s/v Aleria http://www.coastalboating.net
0 link
Hasbun
Posts: 42


4/8/2015
Hasbun
Posts: 42
We picked up our "long stay visas - visas without residency card" from the French consulate this morning.

We are grateful to Ted, Kingsley, and others who were instrumental in orienting us regarding the practicalities of securing these sorts of visas.

The employees at the consulate advised we may not enter France prior to the visa start date, which is June 15th (an arrival date we ourselves set).

Our health insurance had to explicitly state coverage until June 14th, 2016 or else the visa would have been shortened to the stated coverage expiration date, three months earlier. This may be meaningless for US persons who pay for insurance month to month anyway (so missed payments lapse the coverage, even if the contract states expiry far into the future), but it is not meaningless to the consuls. In the event, the consular officers generously accepted a letter that stated our coverage expiring February 2016 can optionally be extended for another year; but other applicants would be well advised to avoid relying on the generosity of consuls.

We presented a signed draft contract from a French marina for a full year. The contract had attached a "proforma" invoice showing the full balance as unpaid.

Any future applicants, please contact me for any further details.

Cheers,
0 link
Northstar82
Posts: 9


2/28/2015
Northstar82
Posts: 9
I gave them the address where we will be commissioning for the season in St. Quay- Portrieux in Brittany. Again thanks for your advice and encouragement. Ted

--
Ted Rice s/v North Star #82 Shannon Pilothouse 38
0 link
Kingsley Ross
Posts: 5


2/27/2015
Kingsley Ross
Posts: 5
Great! What did you offer them for an address?
0 link
Northstar82
Posts: 9


2/27/2015
Northstar82
Posts: 9
Shan and I ventured up to the French Consulate for our appointment with the Visa Officer Wednesday. We received a FEDEX today (Friday) with our passports and approved long stay Visas (LSV) which are good for a year stay in France! (We will still need to check in with the Office of Immigration and Integration when we get to France to validate the visa within 90 days of our arrival.)

The meeting with the Visa Officer was conducted with both of us present, but processed individually. He just marched down the check list on their website and we handed over the papers as he asked for them. He kept all the papers I gave him. He was satisfied with North
Star 's USCG registration copy and the marina 's emailed estimate (devis). We purchased a Seven Corners policy for emergency evacuation and repatriation since the Navy retirement medical did not cover that. The coverage period needed to fit our planned stay in France. No mention of any deductible limits. We provided both income and investments since we are retired.

We will be cruising south along the west coast of France and then west/south across the coast of Spain and south along Portugal leading to Madeira or Canaries. The French LSV allows for passage through other Schengen countries back to France, and does not mention a time limit to be in transit. If the time limit in transit were 90 days, it would not limit our cruise because at the end of our cruise we plan to return to US via France anyway. Although obtaining the visas required some effort to get them, we think it was well worth it. We appreciate all the helpful feedback we have received so far.

--
Ted Rice s/v North Star #82 Shannon Pilothouse 38
0 link
Northstar82
Posts: 9


2/27/2015
Northstar82
Posts: 9
The wording of the Schengen Agreement is such that after 90 days the non-EU resident needs to spend 90 days outside. Yes, it would reset the clock if you could spend 90 days there. Spending the winter in Britain might be another option that would work,

--
Ted Rice s/v North Star #82 Shannon Pilothouse 38
0 link
Northstar82
Posts: 9


2/14/2015
Northstar82
Posts: 9
We have heard from others who were not successful with the Italian D Visa. Glad to hear of your success. There seem to be many variables that can lead to either success of failure. Thanks for the feedback.

--
Ted Rice s/v North Star #82 Shannon Pilothouse 38
0 link
Kingsley Ross
Posts: 5


2/14/2015
Kingsley Ross
Posts: 5
Ted - while it is not on your radar we just received our Italian Type D visas via the Miami consulate. It only about a week for them to issue it. They had no problem with us living on our boat.
0 link
12






Powered by Jitbit Forum 8.3.8.0 © 2006-2013 Jitbit Software