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Anchors and anchoring Messages in this topic - RSS

Dick
Posts: 253


2/19/2018
Dick
Posts: 253
Hi David,
As I said in the previous post, I was writing for other readers. You have made your decision and that is fine. I in no way wished to keep poking at you and am very sorry that it was taken in that manner. Were we to have been having a private dialogue, I would not have pursued any further communication on the subject, but we were having a public discussion.
I consider the Forum as a place to communicate and pursue “best practices” and learn from others in the process. Sometimes that entails an awkward back and forth. I admire your creativity to see the possibilities in a piece of equipment from another recreation which will likely serve a new function in our sport as a kellet and save considerable money as well.
I wrote initially to answer your question as to a problem you were having and support your use of a kellet as a solution. I chose to share some of what I had learned over the years in using kellets in hopes it might accelerate your (and others) learning curve. I also chose to flag some of what I saw as limitations of an iron ball over lead. I believe a lead kellet to be “best practices” (and suggested a way of obtaining lead at reasonably price) but absolutely understand that one can choose alternatives that work for them.
My only other consideration when writing for the Forum is whether there are any safety issues in deviating from best practices and there are certainly none embedded in our discussion.
I wish you very good luck.
My best, Dick

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Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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David Tyler
Posts: 187


2/19/2018
David Tyler
Posts: 187
Hi Dick,

With equal respect, I have to disagree with your comments. Has the galvanising never been abraded from your steel anchor and chain? The answer must be yes, if you've used them at all. Show me a boat with a rust-free anchor, and I'll show you a boat that doesn't get anchored very much. And what have you done about it? The answer must be to have done some maintenance. So what's new? We all know that boats need maintenance. My cast iron keels will need painting in the future, but at the moment they're not so bad that I can't live with them.

In the case of this kettlebell, I think that it may be powder coating rather than soft paint, as it seems quite thick. If it were to wear off in places, I should think nothing of applying a dab of Hammerite, or other rust remover or treatment. Really, I don't think that you're in a position to comment on this particular device without having held it in your hand, and I can't understand why you've made an issue of this.

Certainly, when my sailing season begins in April or May, I'll report back.

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David Tyler "Weaverbird" weaverbird22@gmail.com
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Dick
Posts: 253


2/18/2018
Dick
Posts: 253
Hi David,
I very much hope that your kellet will work out for you as hoped for.
As I write with the idea that others may read our words, I will say that I, respectfully, disagree that a painted iron ball used in an anchoring system will be anything but a maintenance/storage-messy problem just down the line. The fact that it is neoprene covered just means that salt water will infiltrate the cover and percolate where it can’t be seen or gotten to. For an illustration of what I mean, just look at the owners of iron keel vessels every spring and the work they must do to keep rust and deterioration away and to ensure adhesion to the paint. Lead solves all issues and adds density as a bonus.
In any case, time will tell and it is not a big deal either way and certainly not a safety issue. Please give us a field report on down the line.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

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Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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David Tyler
Posts: 187


2/13/2018
David Tyler
Posts: 187
The kettlebell was delivered today, and as I thought, it's going to be perfect as a chum/buddy/sentinel/kellet (how did so many names arise?). The handle is smooth and easy to grip to lift over the stemhead, as I'd expect for an item that is intended to be swung around (its origin as a cannonball with added handle is very apparent). It's well painted, so rust will not be an issue. The neoprene casing is thick, solid and tough, and will stand being thrown into the chain locker. I think probably the best thing to attach it to the rode is a http://www.gsproducts.co.uk/stainless-steel-winch-hook/ , lashed on.
edited by David Tyler on 2/13/2018

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David Tyler "Weaverbird" weaverbird22@gmail.com
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Dick
Posts: 253


2/10/2018
Dick
Posts: 253
Hi David,
I believe your chum (sentinel/kellet) will solve (or at least make less likely and easier to resolve) the problem you refer to. I have all chain on the bower, but a stern anchor or a second anchor off the bow often can get into mischief in just the way you describe and a kellet has always made a difference.
For what it is worth (in other words “no scientific evidence” just an observation) I try to position the kellet just longer than the distance along the rode as the water is deep. In that way if the rode goes slack, the kellet sinks to the bottom and keeps the rode fixed in place until the wind/current stretches it out again. I always also have the kellet adjustable/retrievable from the deck. I have a slick “slide” I found in a fire sale decades ago, but a snatch block works just as well. In a mid-night fire drill with the boat bouncing around, you do not want a heavy weight needing anything fancy or difficult to separate from the rode
You might check the actual immersion weight of the chum you are referring to as iron is also less dense than lead. Also, iron will rust quickly and the expansion will get inside the neoprene cover and (I suspect) you will have a messy gross difficult-to-store, piece of gear in short order. My larger kellet is a handful of lead dive weights with a long ss eyebolt passed through the weight’s belt slot. It is surprising how often these end up in marine flee markets where they can be bought inexpensively.
Let us know how things work out.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

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Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
+1 link
David Tyler
Posts: 187


2/10/2018
David Tyler
Posts: 187
When I anchor Weaverbird in a tideway, at the turn of the tide the anchor rode (short chain plus 12mm nylon) has an annoying habit of getting caught around one of the bilge keels. This means that she lies athwart the tide, and puts a great deal more load on the anchor.
So, I thought, I need a chum. But looking around the UK online chandlers, all I could find was a Buddy at Jimmy Green, a snip at £158.40 !!!
So, I thought, there has to be something cheaper than that, surely.
So I looked at weight training apparatus, and found that there is such a thing as a kettlebell, which looks darned near perfect for the job. It comes in many different weights, and I think I'm going to get one at 8Kg. This one is cast iron, with a neoprene casing as well, which may be kinder to the boat. There are also models made of cement, which are probably not worth considering as the density of cement is not so much greater than seawater.
Initial thought on deployment is that I'll lead the nylon rode through the loop permanently, and secure a 3 metre line to the loop, with a soft eye that I can drop onto a foredeck cleat.

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David Tyler "Weaverbird" weaverbird22@gmail.com
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Dick
Posts: 253


10/1/2016
Dick
Posts: 253
Hi David, Agreed. For those of us who anchor regularly and sometimes in marginal conditions, these anchors are a very impressive leap in vessel and personnel safety even with a few rarely encountered glitches (now becoming more predictable). Steve 's experiments are fascinating and may prove the way to go. Early days yet, but I am sure there are those out there getting the drill bits out: and hopefully reporting to the various streams of info.
My best, Dick

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Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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David Tyler
Posts: 187


10/1/2016
David Tyler
Posts: 187
Dick,
Even after this one failure, I have to say that the Rocna is whole lot more reliable than the Delta I used to use, and I 'm with you and Alex that the modern generation of scoop anchors represents a great leap forward in anchor design. There 's just this one flaw to address, and I was very interested in Steve 's and the Sarca designer 's findings that the addition of perforations to the fluke will cause the clod of mud to be shrugged off. Now I 'm wondering if I should bring the anchor ashore and put it under the drill...

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David Tyler "Weaverbird" weaverbird22@gmail.com
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Dick
Posts: 253


10/1/2016
Dick
Posts: 253
Hi David, Thanks for your report and sorry you had a re-set problem. Those on the Attainable Adventures web site who have Rocna 's report the intention of raising anchor and cleaning their anchor to ensure a good stick after a wind shift. Please see the web site (20$/year, but very valuable for a wealth of issues and info from seasoned cruisers) for discussions/comments from Rocna owners. And, yes, Steve deserves a big round of applause for his creative evaluation of anchors.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

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Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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David Tyler
Posts: 187


10/1/2016
David Tyler
Posts: 187
I can add another report: A couple of weeks ago, I dragged my Rocna anchor, in light winds but at the turn of the tide (in the Irish Sea, noted for its big tides). The bottom was sticky mud, and I 'm used to my Rocna coming up with a big clod of such sea bottom attached. I 'd never have thought of this as the reason for the unreliable reset, and I 'm very grateful for having it explained and demonstrated so well by Steve, SV Panope.

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David Tyler "Weaverbird" weaverbird22@gmail.com
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Dick
Posts: 253


9/30/2016
Dick
Posts: 253
Hi Simon,
Thanks for your report. I am sorry you had a re-set problem, although it sounds isolated and under extreme conditions. Still unsettling though.
There appears to be some conjecture at this early-days attempt at understanding, that the scoop aspects of the new generation anchors accumulates seabed which unbalances the anchor so as to make it more difficult for the tip to penetrate when re-setting in a significant wind shift. Those of us with new gen anchors are aware of how much seabed comes up with the anchor when weighed and how stuck this seabed becomes (and how much work it is to clean). When the anchor goes down clean, these anchors are a marvel.
The Spade anchor seems to be less compromised by this tendency, probably as it has a far higher weight in the tip in the form of a lead insert and therefore is less susceptible to the unbalancing caused by a build-up of mud weight.
My best to all, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

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Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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Simon Currin
Administrator
Posts: 728


9/30/2016
Simon Currin
Administrator
Posts: 728
I thought I had posted it here but it must have been somewhere else. I can report that we encountered this same re-setting problem with our Manson Sumpreme this summer in extreme conditions. The point being that the issue is not confined to the Rocna but, as one would expect, common to other scoop designs.
Simon

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Simon Currin
S/V Shimshal simon@medex.org.uk
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Dick
Posts: 253


9/30/2016
Dick
Posts: 253
Hi Alex,
My take on your comments pertaining to the individual who is primary on the ACC site, OCC member John Harries, is that any relationship with Spade anchors plays no part in the concerns he writes about. I have followed his writings for years and have never found his judgments to be influenced in the way you describe and I find the implication of personal bias and implied vendetta (“driven” rather than he is responding to accumulated data) uncomfortable to hear, especially as it reflects on me as having brought it to the membership’s attention.
The anecdotal concerns were brought to a head by the Panope video I cited and he referred to. Alex, have you read the thread I referred to on ACC where these concerns are addressed and responded to by a large number of experienced cruisers and where first hand reports of re-setting failures by Rocna are described? Or looked at the videos compiled over the years by the Panope site? You did not report doing so in your recent comments I would be interested in your take as you are quite experienced in this area and far better read on the various tests conducted. Most tests I am familiar with have so many limitations as to make them almost useless (or misleading): the Panope videos being the exception as they show the anchors in action.
I report this to the membership as a warning that is documented in places I trust: not to start a disagreement. Everyone should evaluate all the data available in their choice of anchors. I agree with you as I also believe that cruisers should have one of the new generation anchors. They are just far superior. A Rocna, even with this emerging proclivity, is still far better anchor than a CQR or Delta or Bruce. But there is accumulating evidence that, for some new generation anchors, that re-setting is compromised in just the way that Steve/Panope has documented so well on his videos of anchors and their actual behavior on the seabed as well as the ACC site.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

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Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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Alex_Blackwell
Posts: 41


9/30/2016
Alex_Blackwell
Posts: 41
Dick
If I am not mistaken, that thread is being driven by an individual, who is by his own admission sponsored by a different scoop type anchor manufacturer.
Whereas some of the things he professes are valid, others are pure conjecture.

The bottom line is that the Rocna, Ultra, Spade, Supreme, Mantus, and the other scoop type anchors, with and without roll bars, have been proven time and time again in properly conducted impartial tests, to set, hold and veer exceptionally well. Our own experience with them has borne this out. Yes, we have received free anchors from several manufacturers to take out cruising, and yes we have found slight variations in their performance, but we cannot state that this is not a result of how we deploy them. And no, we have not been sponsored by any manufacturer.

In our opinion, every serious cruiser would be advised to carry a scoop type anchor as their primary (bower).

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Capt. Alex Blackwell
Regional Rear Commodore, Ireland
http://Coastalboating.net
Happy Hooking – the Art of Anchoring A “must have” for all boaters
http://www.whiteseahorse.ie/Anchoring
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Dick
Posts: 253


9/30/2016
Dick
Posts: 253
Please see the Rocna discussion (in this forum) for a warning about accumulating evidence that Rocna anchors have trouble re-setting in a significant wind shift.
Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

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Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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Dick
Posts: 253


1/4/2016
Dick
Posts: 253
Hi Daria and Alex,
I just bumped into your aforementioned article and very much enjoyed hearing some of the history of anchors, their evolution over time and the cast of characters that spent time (and probably lots of it) evolving them.
Thanks, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

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Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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mina
Posts: 12


3/16/2013
mina
Posts: 12
Before going to the Deep South, I exchanged my 60lb (27kg) CQR for an oversized 40kg Rocna (this for a 20 ton 49 ft yacht). It changed my life. With the CQR I had to re-lay about 1 in 4 times and, except in settled and windless conditions, I didn 't sleep too well having had the CQR drag on several occasions (and by most standards I use a lot of scope when room allows).
I must have layed the Rocna over 200 times and have only had to re-lay on about 3 occasions. I have anchored in kelp, on rock and in soft, soft mud. Even in winds in excess of 55 knots (www.blog.mailasail.com/mina2/277) it has not dragged once (yet).

There are drawbacks however:
1. You have to motor back on to it to set it GENTLY. The Rocna digs in so quickly and abruptly that otherwise you are in danger of pulling the windlass out of the deck.
2. You need a really powerful windlass to bring it up as it often reappears with an additional 40kg of mud attached to it (for which the best solution is an ordinary gardeners dutch hoe on a stick, which is also the best tool, if sharpened, for slicing kelp off the anchor chain).

Tim Barker, S/Y Mina2
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Daria Blackwell
Administrator
Posts: 716


3/6/2013
Daria Blackwell
Administrator
Posts: 716
Do you have a bent anchor? Practical Sailor, a US publication, is looking for photos of anchors with bent shafts for an upcoming edition.

Here is the prelude to the article... http://www.practical-sailor.com/blog/-11005-1.html?ET=practicalsailor:e8002:125771a:&st=email

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Daria Blackwell - Rear Commodore, PR Officer, Editor OCC Digital Comms & Port Officer, West of Ireland s/v Aleria http://www.coastalboating.net

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Daria Blackwell
Administrator
Posts: 716


1/30/2013
Daria Blackwell
Administrator
Posts: 716
We are pleased to announce that our book Happy Hooking. The Art of Anchoring is now available for Kindle on amazon.com worldwide. The print edition is the bestselling anchoring book on amazon.com. There is a full post of our press release on the OCC Forum 'for sale ' page.

We have also posted excerpts covering a wide range of anchoring topics on our website. http://www.coastalboating.net/Resources/Books/CSBooks/HappyHooking.html


[attachment=62]HH-2011-FrontCover-web-sm-thmb.jpg[/attachment]

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Daria Blackwell - Rear Commodore, PR Officer, Editor OCC Digital Comms & Port Officer, West of Ireland s/v Aleria http://www.coastalboating.net

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Daria Blackwell
Administrator
Posts: 716


9/21/2012
Daria Blackwell
Administrator
Posts: 716
We have just completed a new article about the history of anchors. Do you know the origin of your anchor?



http://www.coastalboating.net/Cruising/Seamanship/Anchoring/History.html

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Daria Blackwell - Rear Commodore, PR Officer, Editor OCC Digital Comms & Port Officer, West of Ireland s/v Aleria http://www.coastalboating.net

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