By bbalme - 1 Jan 2019
What's the best method to attach a shackle to your halyard?
Currently, all mine are spliced on - which I haven't learned to do yet. However, I can tie a reasonable bowline - or even a Palomar. Which is stronger - knot or splice? (I know which is cheaper!)
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By Dick - 3 Jan 2019
Hi Bill,
Not sure about best, but the following is my take:
A splice is always stronger than a knot.
My take on splices is that, for most of us, it is better to let a pro do the splice (with braid, stranded line I still do all my own splices). If you are doing them all the time, you just do a better job. I gave up doing them after learning to splice braid years ago, as I found my occasional (once every couple of years) efforts while perhaps strong enough suffered from looks and the tapers were not so functional.
For conventional line, a buntline hitch is an excellent knot to attach a shackle to a halyard. A bowline is not recommended as the nature of its construction is such that it keeps the halyard from being raised full hoist. The buntline hitch is essentially a slip knot that jams on itself. It is a very secure knot, but can be a bear to untie, which luckily is rarely necessary for halyard to shackle connections.
For high modulus halyards I would generally have a pro doing a splice as HM lines lose more of their strength when knotted and the core can slip through knots. I do not have a lot of experience with knots in HM lines, but when I do use them I always secure the core to the outer layer with stitching and make sure that the strength of my HM line is overkill for the job as the knot will compromise strength to a greater extent. This has worked for me as my halyards are HM line and for two of them I have turned end for end and cut off the splice and used buntline hitches to secure the “new” end to the shackle.
Spliced halyards should all have a “knob” of some sort to keep the splice from being drawn into the sheave and jamming. With a hitch this is unnecessary as the knot will be the “stopper” at the sheave.
Come back with questions/comments.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By bbalme - 3 Jan 2019
Thanks for the response Dick.
I'm not quite clear on some terms... braid and stranded lines that you do yourself - do you mean things like 12 strand Dyneema and 3 strand Poly type lines? When it comes to "double braid" you turn to a pro? Sorry, somewhat separated from my native language having started sailing in the States!
My halyards are High Modulus lines and unfortunately have suffered damage such that I need to end for end one and completely replace the other. (I got lucky - it was nearly in half about 1/3rd down the length... I clearly have a problem in the mast!)
I'm not sure how successful anyone will be splicing the lazy end of an 11 year old halyard - hence the thought of moving to a knot. Thanks for the steer to the Buntline Hitch - not one that resides in my admittedly very small arsenal!
I'm now trying to identify appropriate line types in the UK for both the halyard I need to replace as well as some reefing lines that I want to convert to HM.
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By Dick - 3 Jan 2019
Hi Bill,
By stranded, I basically mean the 3 strand nylon I use for dock lines, snubbers, anchor bridle etc. although I have used some of the multi-strand whose name escapes me now. And yes, I turn double braid polyester/Dacron over to a pro as well as all HM line for splicing. Somewhat against advice, I turned an HM line end for end a few years ago and finished it off with a buntline hitch and stitching and it has stood the test of time. Older lines are generally not worth (or possible) to splice. My one time of having a halyard chafe inside the mast was, I believe, caused by having the halyard quite loose for a long time in very boisterous conditions: it was the main sail halyard and for 24+ hours we were running before a gale with the main down and the halyard not pulled tight).
My best, Dick
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By David.Tyler - 11 Jan 2019
Bill,
I use the snare knot, or poacher's knot, for semi permanent attachments such as this, It is very secure, even in bare Dyneema, and has the least bulk and best strength of any such knot, as far as I'm aware. It can be tied very short-ended. Once snugged up and loaded, it needs a spike to loosen it, so is best used wherever you'd use a splice.
https://www.animatedknots.com/poachers/index.php
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By Dick - 11 Jan 2019
Hi David,
Thanks for coming in on this.
That is an interesting knot that I was unaware of and I will keep it in mind and give it some practice when I get a chance. I especially like that reports indicate that it is more more secure with HM lines. I am also aware of the EStar (developed and tested by Evans Starzinger) which is also good for HM lines but seems a bit bulky for halyards although I have not used it in that context.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By bbalme - 12 Jan 2019
That is an interesting knot David... Add a few more wraps and it begins to look like a hangman's noose!
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By David.Tyler - 12 Jan 2019
[quote=Bill Balme]That is an interesting knot David... Add a few more wraps and it begins to look like a hangman's noose![/quote]
With three turns instead of two, it's called a scaffold knot. Useful to know in case you have a mutiny aboard and your rig includes a yardarm.
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By Voila - 22 Sep 2021
In place of a splice you may use a "halyard shackle hitch"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3f4Ef7Y3SqU
Check out the Selden manual.
https://support.seldenmast.com/files/1628841349/595-542-E.pdf
It is excellent. Page 16 for the Selden knot.
This a fantastic manual. Follow the instructions from page 32 on, to tune your mast.
The beauty of using a knot in place of splice is speed and Halyards can be easily removed and end for ended.
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By Dick - 22 Sep 2021
+x
Hi Voila and all,
Please note that more halyards are being made of synthetic/ high modulus materials and that most (or all?) HM lines should not have knots used in them. They knots cause too much rope strength to be lost and are so slippery (core also) that the knot could be compromised.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By Voila - 23 Sep 2021
+x+x Hi Voila and all, Please note that more halyards are being made of synthetic/ high modulus materials and that most (or all?) HM lines should not have knots used in them. They knots cause too much rope strength to be lost and are so slippery (core also) that the knot could be compromised. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
We choose HM line for low stretch. It is usually covered with a polyester braid to improve abrasion and UV protection. I agree with a splice as being the strongest. However with my experience with rigging there is sometimes a bigger problem at the other end. The core slips through cover braid at the clutch. I stitch through the cover to core. (Belay to a cleat, we have point loading.) Better quality lines have very tightly braided cover to counteract this problem. Core dependant lines have many good qualities. Strength, I observe, is of secondary importance.
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By Dick - 23 Sep 2021
+x+x+x Hi Voila and all, Please note that more halyards are being made of synthetic/ high modulus materials and that most (or all?) HM lines should not have knots used in them. They knots cause too much rope strength to be lost and are so slippery (core also) that the knot could be compromised. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy We choose HM line for low stretch. It is usually covered with a polyester braid to improve abrasion and UV protection. I agree with a splice as being the strongest. However with my experience with rigging there is sometimes a bigger problem at the other end. The core slips through cover braid at the clutch. I stitch through the cover to core. (Belay to a cleat, we have point loading.) Better quality lines have very tightly braided cover to counteract this problem. Core dependant lines have many good qualities. Strength, I observe, is of secondary importance.
Hi Voila,
Yes, you are good to point out that HM line comes made from a variety of materials and that they have different characteristics in rope clutch/brakes, knots etc. I believe stitching core to cover is always a good idea, but best when the core is woven and less good when the core is straight laid as I believe some cores to be.
On Alchemy HM lines are used for:
The halyards for my sails that are made from HM materials (HydraNet Radial cloth) (my spinnaker halyard remains Dacron/polyester as I like the give when hit by a gust.
My asym sheets are synthetic for the sole reasons that they are very light-weight and do not soak up water like a sponge and get heavy as Dacron does: they shed water and remain light-weight: very helpful in light air.
Other attributes of HM line are that it is much lighter weight and smaller in size. This can be nice as a 5/8 inch/16mm line mainsheet could be replaced by 7/16 inch/11mm HM line with much less of a bulky heavy bundle to deal with in the cockpit. (I do not recommend HM sheets for headsails: no give or forgiveness in gusts.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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