By PhilipH2 - 8 Oct 2021
Our batteries are reaching a stage where replacement will be needed shortly. Consequently we are thinking about LiFePO4 batteries which are lighter, smaller, don't require same capacity, can be discharged further and last longer but are a bit more costly. Does anyone have any experience or advice re these batteries?
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By Dick - 9 Oct 2021
+xOur batteries are reaching a stage where replacement will be needed shortly. Consequently we are thinking about LiFePO4 batteries which are lighter, smaller, don't require same capacity, can be discharged further and last longer but are a bit more costly. Does anyone have any experience or advice re these batteries?
Hi Phillip,
Those I know who have had the best luck with lithium, have had them professionally installed where the same vender has done the whole package. There are venders flogging “drop-in” lithium batteries which sound great, but I do not think they have yet to meet the test of time on board on an actively cruised boat. This notion is supported by the reports I hear that some insurance companies are refusing to write policies for those boats with lithium installs. They are particularly leery of home/self installs and where it is a new policy where the skipper does not have a track record with the company.
So, I would check with your ins. co. first. It would be a hige bummer to do an install and not be able to get insured.
This area is rapidly changing, so a year or two might make a huge difference. And in 10 years we all will be going that route.
Let us know what you find out.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
BTW, I have them on my RV and they are terrific.
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By PhilipH2 - 9 Oct 2021
+x+xOur batteries are reaching a stage where replacement will be needed shortly. Consequently we are thinking about LiFePO4 batteries which are lighter, smaller, don't require same capacity, can be discharged further and last longer but are a bit more costly. Does anyone have any experience or advice re these batteries? Hi Phillip, Those I know who have had the best luck with lithium, have had them professionally installed where the same vender has done the whole package. There are venders flogging “drop-in” lithium batteries which sound great, but I do not think they have yet to meet the test of time on board on an actively cruised boat. This notion is supported by the reports I hear that some insurance companies are refusing to write policies for those boats with lithium installs. They are particularly leery of home/self installs and where it is a new policy where the skipper does not have a track record with the company. So, I would check with your ins. co. first. It would be a hige bummer to do an install and not be able to get insured. This area is rapidly changing, so a year or two might make a huge difference. And in 10 years we all will be going that route. Let us know what you find out. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy BTW, I have them on my RV and they are terrific.
Thank you, Dick. I did not know about the insurance angle - will check and let you know. I would have them professionally installed.
Best, Phil
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By Dick - 9 Oct 2021
+x+x+xOur batteries are reaching a stage where replacement will be needed shortly. Consequently we are thinking about LiFePO4 batteries which are lighter, smaller, don't require same capacity, can be discharged further and last longer but are a bit more costly. Does anyone have any experience or advice re these batteries? Hi Phillip, Those I know who have had the best luck with lithium, have had them professionally installed where the same vender has done the whole package. There are venders flogging “drop-in” lithium batteries which sound great, but I do not think they have yet to meet the test of time on board on an actively cruised boat. This notion is supported by the reports I hear that some insurance companies are refusing to write policies for those boats with lithium installs. They are particularly leery of home/self installs and where it is a new policy where the skipper does not have a track record with the company. So, I would check with your ins. co. first. It would be a hige bummer to do an install and not be able to get insured. This area is rapidly changing, so a year or two might make a huge difference. And in 10 years we all will be going that route. Let us know what you find out. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy BTW, I have them on my RV and they are terrific. Thank you, Dick. I did not know about the insurance angle - will check and let you know. I would have them professionally installed. Best, Phil
Hi Phil, Let us know what you discover and if you do an install, the details. I suspect many will be interested. Dick
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By simoncurrin - 10 Oct 2021
Forgive my ignorance but why is this such a big deal when plenty have made a smooth transition to lithium? We have carried a couple of 500 watt Torqeedo batteries for 10 years which we have charged on board at both 12 volts and 24 volts without incident.
I do appreciate that lithium fires are a big deal but lead acid charging has destroyed plenty of boats too. Don’t these batteries have their own charge controllers built in that make disaster less likely (unless the cells are damaged)?
I have limited knowledge of the issues but we are all using plenty of lithium powered devices every day without issue and yet there is still nervousness about scaling up to a marine system. Our car charges reliably and quickly with huge DC currents and the batteries are designed to survive crashes at speeds far greater than Shimshal will ever achieve. Surely the safety and reliability issues must be well mitigated by now on boats too?
Sorry for the Devil’s advocacy but I am genuinely wondering why more haven’t made the move.
Simon
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By PhilipH2 - 10 Oct 2021
+xForgive my ignorance but why is this such a big deal when plenty have made a smooth transition to lithium? We have carried a couple of 500 watt Torqeedo batteries for 10 years which we have charged on board at both 12 volts and 24 volts without incident. I do appreciate that lithium fires are a big deal but lead acid charging has destroyed plenty of boats too. Don’t these batteries have their own charge controllers built in that make disaster less likely (unless the cells are damaged)? I have limited knowledge of the issues but we are all using plenty of lithium powered devices every day without issue and yet there is still nervousness about scaling up to a marine system. Our car charges reliably and quickly with huge DC currents and the batteries are designed to survive crashes at speeds far greater than Shimshal will ever achieve. Surely the safety and reliability issues must be well mitigated by now on boats too?Sorry for the Devil’s advocacy but I am genuinely wondering why more haven’t made the move.Simon Hm. Safety you are correct about in that Lithium Iron Phospate LiFePO4 is safer than Lithium-ion LiCoO2 and not likely to combust. However, from what I have gleaned so far it is not a simple case of dropping in LiFePO4 batteries to replace your lead acid/gel/AGM batteries, especially if you have multiple charging sources - alternators, solar, wind, aqua - and you have for example an AGM for engine starting.
Also, I read one article that says you cannot connect more than two LiFePO4 batteries in parallel, but that sounds a bit odd.
I know there are insurance issues in the USA as Dick has mentioned, and given the cost and complexity I have not followed up with our insurer Topsail.
I have nevertheless come to the conclusion that since we need new batteries now, we will stick with the AGMs. There is a very good article here about LiFePO4 batteries: https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/
If anyone has a straightforward what to do with your Battery Management System if you have multiple charging sources and not all LiFePO4 batteries then we would all be extremely grateful.
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By Dick - 10 Oct 2021
+x+xForgive my ignorance but why is this such a big deal when plenty have made a smooth transition to lithium? We have carried a couple of 500 watt Torqeedo batteries for 10 years which we have charged on board at both 12 volts and 24 volts without incident. I do appreciate that lithium fires are a big deal but lead acid charging has destroyed plenty of boats too. Don’t these batteries have their own charge controllers built in that make disaster less likely (unless the cells are damaged)? I have limited knowledge of the issues but we are all using plenty of lithium powered devices every day without issue and yet there is still nervousness about scaling up to a marine system. Our car charges reliably and quickly with huge DC currents and the batteries are designed to survive crashes at speeds far greater than Shimshal will ever achieve. Surely the safety and reliability issues must be well mitigated by now on boats too?Sorry for the Devil’s advocacy but I am genuinely wondering why more haven’t made the move.Simon Hm. Safety you are correct about in that Lithium Iron Phospate LiFePO4 is safer than Lithium-ion LiCoO2 and not likely to combust. However, from what I have gleaned so far it is not a simple case of dropping in LiFePO4 batteries to replace your lead acid/gel/AGM batteries, especially if you have multiple charging sources - alternators, solar, wind, aqua - and you have for example an AGM for engine starting. Also, I read one article that says you cannot connect more than two LiFePO4 batteries in parallel, but that sounds a bit odd. I know there are insurance issues in the USA as Dick has mentioned, and given the cost and complexity I have not followed up with our insurer Topsail. I have nevertheless come to the conclusion that since we need new batteries now, we will stick with the AGMs. There is a very good article here about LiFePO4 batteries: https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/ If anyone has a straightforward what to do with your Battery Management System if you have multiple charging sources and not all LiFePO4 batteries then we would all be extremely grateful.
Hi Simon,
Good question without a satisfying answer. A couple of thoughts, but in no way from an educated person in this area, just stuff I have picked up:
Insurance companies are inherently cautious and conservative. Over time they usually get things right, but often take time to get there.
Not all lithium chemistries are alike in performance and safety. LiFePo4 sounds like the safest, but it is, in many ways, still early days for marine house battery usage.
There have been serious fires and there continue to be. And there continues to be random, somewhat rare, but occasional fires. These occur with the proliferation not only of phones computers (charged on bedding for example), but now high voltage, hi amp lithium batteries for the power tools (drills, vacuums, saws etc.) that are now part of everyone’s tool kit. Poorly stowed on a bouncing around boat, they can short out and get damaged, not to mention the accumulated stress (not designed for) by being around salty air 24/7/265.
Lithium fires are particularly hard to fight, I think.
Lithium has to employ a sophisticated battery management system (BMS) to be charged safely.
Some lithium battery manufacturers (house batteries in a boat’s bank) are flogging their product in ways that have yet to be proven by the test of time.
It is one thing to have a fire in a car or home that you can walk away from: a boat is a different story. There is little that scares me more than a fire onboard.
All vessels should have as part of their regular safety habits a recognition that battery charging of the proliferation of devices deserves a attention. On Alchemy, this includes a review of chargers: probably best to always go with the manufacturer’s chargers (even if more expensive) than the much cheaper charger from a “super-huge” store. Also keep an eye on wiring, especially the joint from the wire to the connector into the device (I often augment the joint with some strain- relief tape on devices that are vulnerable to repeated ins-and-outs or wires that get tugged occasionally). All charging is also done on a hard surface and I have smoke detectors as part of Alchemy’s early fire detection.
All the above said, I think the area of lithium batteries is evolving quickly from a Wild-West free-for-all atmosphere to something much more predictable, safe and every-day. I suspect every year a greater percentage of boats will have lithium batteries.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By Dick - 10 Oct 2021
+x+x+xForgive my ignorance but why is this such a big deal when plenty have made a smooth transition to lithium? We have carried a couple of 500 watt Torqeedo batteries for 10 years which we have charged on board at both 12 volts and 24 volts without incident. I do appreciate that lithium fires are a big deal but lead acid charging has destroyed plenty of boats too. Don’t these batteries have their own charge controllers built in that make disaster less likely (unless the cells are damaged)? I have limited knowledge of the issues but we are all using plenty of lithium powered devices every day without issue and yet there is still nervousness about scaling up to a marine system. Our car charges reliably and quickly with huge DC currents and the batteries are designed to survive crashes at speeds far greater than Shimshal will ever achieve. Surely the safety and reliability issues must be well mitigated by now on boats too?Sorry for the Devil’s advocacy but I am genuinely wondering why more haven’t made the move.Simon Hm. Safety you are correct about in that Lithium Iron Phospate LiFePO4 is safer than Lithium-ion LiCoO2 and not likely to combust. However, from what I have gleaned so far it is not a simple case of dropping in LiFePO4 batteries to replace your lead acid/gel/AGM batteries, especially if you have multiple charging sources - alternators, solar, wind, aqua - and you have for example an AGM for engine starting. Also, I read one article that says you cannot connect more than two LiFePO4 batteries in parallel, but that sounds a bit odd. I know there are insurance issues in the USA as Dick has mentioned, and given the cost and complexity I have not followed up with our insurer Topsail. I have nevertheless come to the conclusion that since we need new batteries now, we will stick with the AGMs. There is a very good article here about LiFePO4 batteries: https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/ If anyone has a straightforward what to do with your Battery Management System if you have multiple charging sources and not all LiFePO4 batteries then we would all be extremely grateful. Hi Simon, Good question without a satisfying answer. A couple of thoughts, but in no way from an educated person in this area, just stuff I have picked up: Insurance companies are inherently cautious and conservative. Over time they usually get things right, but often take time to get there. Not all lithium chemistries are alike in performance and safety. LiFePo4 sounds like the safest, but it is, in many ways, still early days for marine house battery usage. There have been serious fires and there continue to be. And there continues to be random, somewhat rare, but occasional fires. These occur with the proliferation not only of phones computers (charged on bedding for example), but now high voltage, hi amp lithium batteries for the power tools (drills, vacuums, saws etc.) that are now part of everyone’s tool kit. Poorly stowed on a bouncing around boat, they can short out and get damaged, not to mention the accumulated stress (not designed for) by being around salty air 24/7/265. Lithium fires are particularly hard to fight, I think. Lithium has to employ a sophisticated battery management system (BMS) to be charged safely. Some lithium battery manufacturers (house batteries in a boat’s bank) are flogging their product in ways that have yet to be proven by the test of time. It is one thing to have a fire in a car or home that you can walk away from: a boat is a different story. There is little that scares me more than a fire onboard. All vessels should have as part of their regular safety habits a recognition that battery charging of the proliferation of devices deserves a attention. On Alchemy, this includes a review of chargers: probably best to always go with the manufacturer’s chargers (even if more expensive) than the much cheaper charger from a “super-huge” store. Also keep an eye on wiring, especially the joint from the wire to the connector into the device (I often augment the joint with some strain- relief tape on devices that are vulnerable to repeated ins-and-outs or wires that get tugged occasionally). All charging is also done on a hard surface and I have smoke detectors as part of Alchemy’s early fire detection. All the above said, I think the area of lithium batteries is evolving quickly from a Wild-West free-for-all atmosphere to something much more predictable, safe and every-day. I suspect every year a greater percentage of boats will have lithium batteries. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Philip,
AGM batteries seems to have dominated the marine battery landscape of late. A couple of cautions/thoughts:
AGMs are not all made alike. They vary dramatically in quality and construction.
The better ones (Lifeline) are able to be equalized, but many AGM manufacturers do not recommend this or do not give instructions on how to do this.
Equalization is (can be) an impressively complicated process, usually demanding shore power to do properly.
According to manufacturers (and cruiser experience), all AGM batteries “need” (or benefit greatly) from being fully charged regularly (every couple of weeks) or else they lose capacity. This is an especially potent complication for those boats who spend a lot of their cruising time at anchor (as I do).
Earlier this season, I was angling toward AGM batteries to replace my gel cells (7 years old, and some abuse from long and weird storage), which I had been using for decades. The above considerations (along with impressively differing recommendations and field reports) lead me to buy again, good quality gel cells, which have no maintenance demands, are quite forgiving, give me 6-8 year service, and I am quite familiar with.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By dcaukill - 14 Nov 2021
A couple of observations.
I have 4x200Ahr LiPO4 batteries fitted as the house bank: charged by 2x100Amp chargers, or the engine alternator, or solar panels. The AGM bowthruster batteries are charged by a DC charger off the house bank as are the engine and generator AGMs by trickle chargers. Everything: batteries, controllers, chargers etc is branded Mastervolt and installled by thier reps. It all works well.
Fire exinguisher by Nueruppin.Their WD range is specifically directed at Lithium batteries.
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By Nimue - 14 Nov 2021
We are replacing our batteries next year and talking to a couple of electrical techs in Canada, they have recommended Firefly as a cheaper alternative to lithium. Has anyone any experience with them ?
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By Dick - 14 Nov 2021
+xA couple of observations. I have 4x200Ahr LiPO4 batteries fitted as the house bank: charged by 2x100Amp chargers, or the engine alternator, or solar panels. The AGM bowthruster batteries are charged by a DC charger off the house bank as are the engine and generator AGMs by trickle chargers. Everything: batteries, controllers, chargers etc is branded Mastervolt and installled by thier reps. It all works well. Fire exinguisher by Nueruppin.Their WD range is specifically directed at Lithium batteries.
Hi dcaukill,
Thanks for your report. Sounds like a well thought through set-up. That is interesting about the fire extinguisher being designed for lithium.
Does your insurance co. know that you have lithium batteries and did they have any reaction? Did they suggest the fire extinguisher?
MV seems to have done a good job at putting together packages.
My best, Dick
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By Dick - 14 Nov 2021
+xWe are replacing our batteries next year and talking to a couple of electrical techs in Canada, they have recommended Firefly as a cheaper alternative to lithium. Has anyone any experience with them ?
Hi Anne and Michael,
No personal experience, but I believe the following to be the case, but please check out what I say:
I have heard good things about Fireflys, but not from anyone I know personally. They are AGMs and, I suspect, may suffer (depending on cruising style) from the usual AGM requirement of really liking to be fully charged with regularity: this is hard/perhaps impossible if you live at anchor for long periods.
The other consideration: sulfation kills batteries and some AGMs (Lifeline) can be equalized (and not an easy task) to mitigate their sulfation. Firefly’s construction is reported to mitigate the effects of sulfation, but I believe the jury is still out in this regard.
Let us know what you discover.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By DariaBlackwell - 22 Nov 2021
Phil,
I believe Jorge Esdorn just last year has switched his batteries to LiFePo4. I think he had the work done at Astilleros Lagos working with POR Alberto Lagos. You might try contacting him.
Daria
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By PhilipH2 - 22 Nov 2021
+xPhil, I believe Jorge Esdorn just last year has switched his batteries to LiFePo4. I think he had the work done at Astilleros Lagos working with POR Alberto Lagos. You might try contacting him. Daria
Thanks
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By Dick - 23 Nov 2021
+xWe are replacing our batteries next year and talking to a couple of electrical techs in Canada, they have recommended Firefly as a cheaper alternative to lithium. Has anyone any experience with them ?
Hi Anne and Michael,
I ran across some info on Firefly batteries, written straight from the FF manual. They talk about “restoration” which sounds like their word for equalization: a process to undo the effects of sulfation and prolong life.
Lifeline AGMs recommend equalization.
Some cruisers seem not to do this process and things work out ok: others have reported battery life shortened, while some swear that equalization is required in an AGM maintenance program.
The above is one reason I have stayed with good quality Gel cell batteries over the decades, although, I suspect that when the time comes again for new batteries (5 years) lithium will be well established and safe and that is the way I will go.
But, please read the FF manual on restoration: I am surprised that your consultants did not mention this aspect as it sounds like a lot of effort.
Please, let us know what you find out.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By Dick - 20 Mar 2022
+x+xWe are replacing our batteries next year and talking to a couple of electrical techs in Canada, they have recommended Firefly as a cheaper alternative to lithium. Has anyone any experience with them ? Hi Anne and Michael, I ran across some info on Firefly batteries, written straight from the FF manual. They talk about “restoration” which sounds like their word for equalization: a process to undo the effects of sulfation and prolong life. Lifeline AGMs recommend equalization. Some cruisers seem not to do this process and things work out ok: others have reported battery life shortened, while some swear that equalization is required in an AGM maintenance program. The above is one reason I have stayed with good quality Gel cell batteries over the decades, although, I suspect that when the time comes again for new batteries (5 years) lithium will be well established and safe and that is the way I will go. But, please read the FF manual on restoration: I am surprised that your consultants did not mention this aspect as it sounds like a lot of effort. Please, let us know what you find out. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
I wrote this for another forum, but it is worth sharing:
Hi all,
This post is doubly motivated.
First, I wish to introduce a man, RC Collins, to any who have not come across his work yet. He has a web site (https://marinehowto.com/) where there are essays and pictures walking a DIY’r easily through a wide variety of projects. Even if not anticipating a project, just reading is immensely informative.
The other motivation is to share that he has written an essay on the current state of affairs with lithium batteries: construction, choice, installation, insurance, safety etc. I consider it pretty definitive.
He has been writing about boats and lithium for years and has had a lithium bank on his boat for ~~ a decade.
I would suggest it essential reading for all those considering lithium.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By Andy.Simonds - 23 Mar 2022
+x+x+xWe are replacing our batteries next year and talking to a couple of electrical techs in Canada, they have recommended Firefly as a cheaper alternative to lithium. Has anyone any experience with them ? Hi Anne and Michael, I ran across some info on Firefly batteries, written straight from the FF manual. They talk about “restoration” which sounds like their word for equalization: a process to undo the effects of sulfation and prolong life. Lifeline AGMs recommend equalization. Some cruisers seem not to do this process and things work out ok: others have reported battery life shortened, while some swear that equalization is required in an AGM maintenance program. The above is one reason I have stayed with good quality Gel cell batteries over the decades, although, I suspect that when the time comes again for new batteries (5 years) lithium will be well established and safe and that is the way I will go. But, please read the FF manual on restoration: I am surprised that your consultants did not mention this aspect as it sounds like a lot of effort. Please, let us know what you find out. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy I wrote this for another forum, but it is worth sharing: Hi all, This post is doubly motivated. First, I wish to introduce a man, RC Collins, to any who have not come across his work yet. He has a web site ( https://marinehowto.com/) where there are essays and pictures walking a DIY’r easily through a wide variety of projects. Even if not anticipating a project, just reading is immensely informative. The other motivation is to share that he has written an essay on the current state of affairs with lithium batteries: construction, choice, installation, insurance, safety etc. I consider it pretty definitive. He has been writing about boats and lithium for years and has had a lithium bank on his boat for ~~ a decade. I would suggest it essential reading for all those considering lithium. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Marinehowto.com is a great site. It's important to note that RC Collins has had a stroke and is unable to keep the store up and running, but the site is still there. He needs some assistance. This is an opportunity to give back to someone who has asked for nothing in exchange for the free and valuable advice that he has shared with the sailing/boating community.
Thanks all.
Andy Simonds, Leslie Reed
s/v Kairos
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By Dick - 23 Mar 2022
+x+x+x+xWe are replacing our batteries next year and talking to a couple of electrical techs in Canada, they have recommended Firefly as a cheaper alternative to lithium. Has anyone any experience with them ? Hi Anne and Michael, I ran across some info on Firefly batteries, written straight from the FF manual. They talk about “restoration” which sounds like their word for equalization: a process to undo the effects of sulfation and prolong life. Lifeline AGMs recommend equalization. Some cruisers seem not to do this process and things work out ok: others have reported battery life shortened, while some swear that equalization is required in an AGM maintenance program. The above is one reason I have stayed with good quality Gel cell batteries over the decades, although, I suspect that when the time comes again for new batteries (5 years) lithium will be well established and safe and that is the way I will go. But, please read the FF manual on restoration: I am surprised that your consultants did not mention this aspect as it sounds like a lot of effort. Please, let us know what you find out. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy I wrote this for another forum, but it is worth sharing: Hi all, This post is doubly motivated. First, I wish to introduce a man, RC Collins, to any who have not come across his work yet. He has a web site ( https://marinehowto.com/) where there are essays and pictures walking a DIY’r easily through a wide variety of projects. Even if not anticipating a project, just reading is immensely informative. The other motivation is to share that he has written an essay on the current state of affairs with lithium batteries: construction, choice, installation, insurance, safety etc. I consider it pretty definitive. He has been writing about boats and lithium for years and has had a lithium bank on his boat for ~~ a decade. I would suggest it essential reading for all those considering lithium. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy Marinehowto.com is a great site. It's important to note that RC Collins has had a stroke and is unable to keep the store up and running, but the site is still there. He needs some assistance. This is an opportunity to give back to someone who has asked for nothing in exchange for the free and valuable advice that he has shared with the sailing/boating community. Thanks all. Andy Simonds, Leslie Reed s/v Kairos Hi Andy & Leslie,
All that is very true.
With extra-ordinary effort (the dictation/typing), this is the first written piece Rod has done since his stroke. Clearly his mind seems back in gear and hopefully his writing efforts will get continue to improve.
I have donated to him over the years (he does his impressive site as a community contribution), and also recently with the reports of his stroke as he was completely self-employed.
I urge all to do so with you as there are few contributions that match his in the marine world.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By dcaukill - 31 Mar 2022
+x+x[quote]A couple of observations. I have 4x200Ahr LiPO4 batteries fitted as the house bank: charged by 2x100Amp chargers, or the engine alternator, or solar panels. The AGM bowthruster batteries are charged by a DC charger off the house bank as are the engine and generator AGMs by trickle chargers. Everything: batteries, controllers, chargers etc is branded Mastervolt and installled by thier reps. It all works well. Fire exinguisher by Nueruppin.Their WD range is specifically directed at Lithium batteries. Hi dcaukill, Thanks for your report. Sounds like a well thought through set-up. That is interesting about the fire extinguisher being designed for lithium. Does your insurance co. know that you have lithium batteries and did they have any reaction? Did they suggest the fire extinguisher? MV seems to have done a good job at putting together packages. My best, Dick The boat having been refitted fairly extensively over the last couple of years, i have now talked my insurers through the work that has been done. Specifically as regards the LiFePO4 batteries, beause they are Mastervolt, fitted to a Mastervolt set up by a Mastervolt dealer they are unconcerned. Because i was aware of your concern i mentioned it to be told that insurers generally do not like DIY lithium conversions and often wont cover them - at least not without an 'expert' assessment.
Thats the good news - the bad news is that they have withdrawn cover for named storms in the Caribbean :-(. It's hard to find a European insurer who will cover it now.
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By Dick - 31 Mar 2022
+x+x+x[quote]A couple of observations. I have 4x200Ahr LiPO4 batteries fitted as the house bank: charged by 2x100Amp chargers, or the engine alternator, or solar panels. The AGM bowthruster batteries are charged by a DC charger off the house bank as are the engine and generator AGMs by trickle chargers. Everything: batteries, controllers, chargers etc is branded Mastervolt and installled by thier reps. It all works well. Fire exinguisher by Nueruppin.Their WD range is specifically directed at Lithium batteries. Hi dcaukill, Thanks for your report. Sounds like a well thought through set-up. That is interesting about the fire extinguisher being designed for lithium. Does your insurance co. know that you have lithium batteries and did they have any reaction? Did they suggest the fire extinguisher? MV seems to have done a good job at putting together packages. My best, Dick The boat having been refitted fairly extensively over the last couple of years, i have now talked my insurers through the work that has been done. Specifically as regards the LiFePO4 batteries, beause they are Mastervolt, fitted to a Mastervolt set up by a Mastervolt dealer they are unconcerned. Because i was aware of your concern i mentioned it to be told that insurers generally do not like DIY lithium conversions and often wont cover them - at least not without an 'expert' assessment. Thats the good news - the bad news is that they have withdrawn cover for named storms in the Caribbean :-(. It's hard to find a European insurer who will cover it now.
Hi DCaukill,
Good info.
Question: Any named storm in the carib in any location at any time? Did they have acceptable dates or acceptable locations or is it as blanket as you described.
Thanks, Dick
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By PhilipH2 - 7 Apr 2022
I have just come across this article which has been written with .. er .. feeling:
https://loosecannon.substack.com/p/youre-not-qualified-to-have-li-batteries?s=w&utm_medium=web
Food for thought.
Phil
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By Dick - 7 Apr 2022
+x
Hi Philip,
Nice catch. I am loath to c&p copywrite material from my Professional Boatbuilder, but I think this particular article is important and it is great you found an on-line copy.
Jonathan Klopman (Marine Surveyor), comments on the state of lithium batteries on boats. His particular expertise is accident reconstruction and failure analysis.
Of particular interest in an overallinteresting article was his description of the suggestions generated by ABYC’s technical information report which (as I understand it) is a precursor report prior to ABYC developing and publishing their standards for a Lithium install.
For those not familiar with ABYC, ABYC is (sort of) the US equivalent to CE.
The article also has some compiled on-board fire statistics which are quite interesting.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By SoggyPaws - 22 May 2022
+xOur batteries are reaching a stage where replacement will be needed shortly. Consequently we are thinking about LiFePO4 batteries which are lighter, smaller, don't require same capacity, can be discharged further and last longer but are a bit more costly. Does anyone have any experience or advice re these batteries?
Phil. This is our first look at this forum so this may be a bit late. After 6 months of careful study we installed a DIY LiFePO4 battery system on our boat, SV Soggy Paws, about 2 years ago using quality equipment and good electrical techniques. It replaced a 13 year old 390 lb Sonnenschein Gel house bank with 100 lbs of LFP cells and 50% more capacity. For anyone contemplating doing this I recommend thorough research on the several trusted LFP websites on the internet, including MarineHowTo and the Nordkyn sites. Both are excellent and very detailed. There are also several good UTube sites, including the Will Prouse and Off Grid Garage sites, that will give visual learners the basics, but not everything you will need to know to do a proper marine install. And there is at least one LFP forum for boats, Lithium on a Boat, that is well regarded because its many experienced users can give good advice on most details. As with all things on the internet remember that not everything on the internet is true! Also, since the technology, is now barely 20 years old even the experts have differences of opinion. There are a number of options on how to do things properly, and some of these are better than others. Our installation is documented on our website. Dave McCampbell SV Soggy Paws
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By Dick - 25 May 2022
+x+xOur batteries are reaching a stage where replacement will be needed shortly. Consequently we are thinking about LiFePO4 batteries which are lighter, smaller, don't require same capacity, can be discharged further and last longer but are a bit more costly. Does anyone have any experience or advice re these batteries? Phil. This is our first look at this forum so this may be a bit late. After 6 months of careful study we installed a DIY LiFePO4 battery system on our boat, SV Soggy Paws, about 2 years ago using quality equipment and good electrical techniques. It replaced a 13 year old 390 lb Sonnenschein Gel house bank with 100 lbs of LFP cells and 50% more capacity. For anyone contemplating doing this I recommend thorough research on the several trusted LFP websites on the internet, including MarineHowTo and the Nordkyn sites. Both are excellent and very detailed. There are also several good UTube sites, including the Will Prouse and Off Grid Garage sites, that will give visual learners the basics, but not everything you will need to know to do a proper marine install. And there is at least one LFP forum for boats, Lithium on a Boat, that is well regarded because its many experienced users can give good advice on most details. As with all things on the internet remember that not everything on the internet is true! Also, since the technology, is now barely 20 years old even the experts have differences of opinion. There are a number of options on how to do things properly, and some of these are better than others. Our installation is documented on our website. Dave McCampbell SV Soggy Paws Hi Dave,
It is good to get your report. A few questions:
Has your insurance company had any reaction to your having a DIY lithium install?
Have you had any load dumps? What have you done in your design to prevent load dumps (or give warning) ?
Have you incorporated any lead batteries into your system as so many seem to be doing now and many are recommending?
As I see you are a US flagged vessel, have you been following the initial reports of ABYC standards with regards to lithium?
Thanks, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Ps. I suspect I could get this from your site, but I am at anchor and also feel others may be interested in these questions.
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By SoggyPaws - 25 May 2022
+x+x+xOur batteries are reaching a stage where replacement will be needed shortly. Consequently we are thinking about LiFePO4 batteries which are lighter, smaller, don't require same capacity, can be discharged further and last longer but are a bit more costly. Does anyone have any experience or advice re these batteries? Phil. This is our first look at this forum so this may be a bit late. After 6 months of careful study we installed a DIY LiFePO4 battery system on our boat, SV Soggy Paws, about 2 years ago using quality equipment and good electrical techniques. It replaced a 13 year old 390 lb Sonnenschein Gel house bank with 100 lbs of LFP cells and 50% more capacity. For anyone contemplating doing this I recommend thorough research on the several trusted LFP websites on the internet, including MarineHowTo and the Nordkyn sites. Both are excellent and very detailed. There are also several good UTube sites, including the Will Prouse and Off Grid Garage sites, that will give visual learners the basics, but not everything you will need to know to do a proper marine install. And there is at least one LFP forum for boats, Lithium on a Boat, that is well regarded because its many experienced users can give good advice on most details. As with all things on the internet remember that not everything on the internet is true! Also, since the technology, is now barely 20 years old even the experts have differences of opinion. There are a number of options on how to do things properly, and some of these are better than others. Our installation is documented on our website. Dave McCampbell SV Soggy Paws Hi Dave, It is good to get your report. A few questions: Has your insurance company had any reaction to your having a DIY lithium install? Have you had any load dumps? What have you done in your design to prevent load dumps (or give warning) ? Have you incorporated any lead batteries into your system as so many seem to be doing now and many are recommending? As I see you are a US flagged vessel, have you been following the initial reports of ABYC standards with regards to lithium? Thanks, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy Ps. I suspect I could get this from your site, but I am at anchor and also feel others may be interested in these questions.
Hi Dick,
Good to see this thread is still active. Having followed this for some time on the forums and elsewhere it amazing how many cruisers/boaters are installing LFP now. But it has to be done right and we recommend by the owner so they will know their system if something goes wrong in the future. Luckily I had my wife, Sherry a degreed engineer and computer programmer, to give me advice when I strayed during installation. She is the real brains on our boat. In answer to your questions:
-Topsail had no mention of lithium batteries until this year when they added install must be done according to manufacturer's recommendations or words to that effect. Our cells, like most others, are from a Chinese company so not much guidance there. So we followed our BMS Electrodacus' recommendations, which are excellent, and that of several others we trusted.
-If by load dump you mean battery being disconnected from the load unexpectedly, that is handled by our BMS if any cell goes below 2.8vpc. Also, some loads, like radios, have a disconnect feature if total battery voltage drops below a certain low value. But this is not really useful with a LeFePO4 (LFP) system as a cell could be really low and the total battery voltage still well above the equipment's load disconnect voltage. We also have a very sophisticated Node Red monitoring system Sherry designed for our computer or a Raspberry Pi. It is fed by the BMS output and external alt regulators. We monitor this constantly while we are aboard. For the above reasons and because we have sufficient battery capacity to last 3 days without charging it is very unlikely we would ever have a unexpected load dump. Soon I will add an alarm set above 2.8vpc to warn us when we get near the BMS low voltage disconnect. All this assumes you are using one of the quality external relay BMSs, not a SE Asian internal Mosfet BMS. Internal Mosfet BMSs are common with preassembled (drop in) lithium batteries and do things differently.
-Our separate 700 cca starter battery is SLA (sealed lead acid) just because it is cheap, works well for about 5 years, and is easily replaceable anywhere in the world. We use a thermal circuit breaker and diode to charge it off the house bank. I have not paralleled a LA battery to our LFP as I see no reason to do so, and it just adds weight to the boat. We are wired with separate BMS controlled to the cell level voltage disconnect relays set to safely independently disconnect charging sources if the BMS sees a cell high voltage spike over 3.55 vpc. See our article for details on this under the lithium install article on our website. http://www.svsoggypaws.com/electricalsystems.htm look at Trickle Charging. Our lithium battery install article is at the top of this link.
-I have seen several posts on the Lithium Batteries on a Boat forum (excellent) regarding ABYC requirements but have not studied them in detail. At this point we are pretty confident we have a safe system. We are now off cruising across SE Asia and have one engine we are overhauling in back of a local mechanic's house. So we are pretty busy and that is not a priority. We will get to having a good look at it eventually but don't expect to have to make many significant changes to comply. Our Electrodacus SBMS0 is very high quality and the several sets of instructions and support from the designer and their forum leads little room for error. And up front we spent the better part of 6 months studying everything we could find to learn what to do and not do. So I think we are good for now.
Have a look on our website link above and you will see how we are set up in great detail. Thanks for your interest. We think this is a real game changer for serious cruisers for many reasons. Happy to answer any more questions if we can.
Dave McCampbell, SV Soggy Paws
In Kai Islands, E Indonesia
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By Dick - 25 May 2022
+x+x+x+xOur batteries are reaching a stage where replacement will be needed shortly. Consequently we are thinking about LiFePO4 batteries which are lighter, smaller, don't require same capacity, can be discharged further and last longer but are a bit more costly. Does anyone have any experience or advice re these batteries? Phil. This is our first look at this forum so this may be a bit late. After 6 months of careful study we installed a DIY LiFePO4 battery system on our boat, SV Soggy Paws, about 2 years ago using quality equipment and good electrical techniques. It replaced a 13 year old 390 lb Sonnenschein Gel house bank with 100 lbs of LFP cells and 50% more capacity. For anyone contemplating doing this I recommend thorough research on the several trusted LFP websites on the internet, including MarineHowTo and the Nordkyn sites. Both are excellent and very detailed. There are also several good UTube sites, including the Will Prouse and Off Grid Garage sites, that will give visual learners the basics, but not everything you will need to know to do a proper marine install. And there is at least one LFP forum for boats, Lithium on a Boat, that is well regarded because its many experienced users can give good advice on most details. As with all things on the internet remember that not everything on the internet is true! Also, since the technology, is now barely 20 years old even the experts have differences of opinion. There are a number of options on how to do things properly, and some of these are better than others. Our installation is documented on our website. Dave McCampbell SV Soggy Paws Hi Dave, It is good to get your report. A few questions: Has your insurance company had any reaction to your having a DIY lithium install? Have you had any load dumps? What have you done in your design to prevent load dumps (or give warning) ? Have you incorporated any lead batteries into your system as so many seem to be doing now and many are recommending? As I see you are a US flagged vessel, have you been following the initial reports of ABYC standards with regards to lithium? Thanks, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy Ps. I suspect I could get this from your site, but I am at anchor and also feel others may be interested in these questions. Hi Dick, Good to see this thread is still active. Having followed this for some time on the forums and elsewhere it amazing how many cruisers/boaters are installing LFP now. But it has to be done right and we recommend by the owner so they will know their system if something goes wrong in the future. Luckily I had my wife, Sherry a degreed engineer and computer programmer, to give me advice when I strayed during installation. She is the real brains on our boat. In answer to your questions: -Topsail had no mention of lithium batteries until this year when they added install must be done according to manufacturer's recommendations or words to that effect. Our cells, like most others, are from a Chinese company so not much guidance there. So we followed our BMS Electrodacus' recommendations, which are excellent, and that of several others we trusted. -If by load dump you mean battery being disconnected from the load unexpectedly, that is handled by our BMS if any cell goes below 2.8vpc. Also, some loads, like radios, have a disconnect feature if total battery voltage drops below a certain low value. But this is not really useful with a LeFePO4 (LFP) system as a cell could be really low and the total battery voltage still well above the equipment's load disconnect voltage. We also have a very sophisticated Node Red monitoring system Sherry designed for our computer or a Raspberry Pi. It is fed by the BMS output and external alt regulators. We monitor this constantly while we are aboard. For the above reasons and because we have sufficient battery capacity to last 3 days without charging it is very unlikely we would ever have a unexpected load dump. Soon I will add an alarm set above 2.8vpc to warn us when we get near the BMS low voltage disconnect. All this assumes you are using one of the quality external relay BMSs, not a SE Asian internal Mosfet BMS. Internal Mosfet BMSs are common with preassembled (drop in) lithium batteries and do things differently. -Our separate 700 cca starter battery is SLA (sealed lead acid) just because it is cheap, works well for about 5 years, and is easily replaceable anywhere in the world. We use a thermal circuit breaker and diode to charge it off the house bank. I have not paralleled a LA battery to our LFP as I see no reason to do so, and it just adds weight to the boat. We are wired with separate BMS controlled to the cell level voltage disconnect relays set to safely independently disconnect charging sources if the BMS sees a cell high voltage spike over 3.55 vpc. See our article for details on this under the lithium install article on our website. http://www.svsoggypaws.com/electricalsystems.htm look at Trickle Charging. Our lithium battery install article is at the top of this link. -I have seen several posts on the Lithium Batteries on a Boat forum (excellent) regarding ABYC requirements but have not studied them in detail. At this point we are pretty confident we have a safe system. We are now off cruising across SE Asia and have one engine we are overhauling in back of a local mechanic's house. So we are pretty busy and that is not a priority. We will get to having a good look at it eventually but don't expect to have to make many significant changes to comply. Our Electrodacus SBMS0 is very high quality and the several sets of instructions and support from the designer and their forum leads little room for error. And up front we spent the better part of 6 months studying everything we could find to learn what to do and not do. So I think we are good for now. Have a look on our website link above and you will see how we are set up in great detail. Thanks for your interest. We think this is a real game changer for serious cruisers for many reasons. Happy to answer any more questions if we can. Dave McCampbell, SV Soggy Paws In Kai Islands, E Indonesia
Hi Dave,
Yes, that is what I mean by load dumps (gotta be a better way of saying this) and you describe one of the scenarios that can lead to a load dump.
Thanks for the fill. Your system sounds well thought through and well researched. I especially like that one of your resources was RC at MarineHowTo who I think has done realy good work at keeping the balance between something exciting new and enticing and boat safety and reliability. And, I believe much still continues to evolve as the field moves toward "standard" practices.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By bbalme - 26 May 2022
Here's how I installed my Lithium batteries...
https://toodleoo.com/?p=2931
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By SoggyPaws - 27 May 2022
+x
Bill. Very nicely done. Using Victron is a class act, and all the blue equipment makes a nice color coordinated install to show off to friends. I like the neat schematic and easily understood writeup. Your big battery protect with the fins looks different from mine without. Maybe a new design?
We have found that in order to live on our LFP batteries on a daily basis here in the tropics we need at least 3X our daily usage in useable battery capacity. That gives us 3 full days on the batteries without having to use any petrol for charging if we have no sun for that long. But that is pretty rare here. We have 540ahrs of LFP cells and use about 150ahrs a day.
We have 800 watts of solar mounted flat with minimal shading which gets us recharged by noon on most days. But of course with LFP that is not important at all. You made a good decision to put a separate small MPPT on each panel. It helps minimize shading impact and one damaged does not affect the others in case one has a problem. If your panels are the same voltage as boat voltage you don't even need MPPTs. Mine are not.
Best and thanks for the link. Dave McCampbell, SV Soggy Paws
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By DariaBlackwell - 7 Jun 2022
Interesting article about Lithium-ion batteries, insurance and thermal runaway fires.
It's a good thing that most of us don't carry electric powered surfboards (which seems an oxymoron to me to begin with) because it seems the gadgets aboard superyachts are mostly at fault when fire occurs. Nevertheless, insurers are declining coverage for yachts with lithium-based batteries. It is advised to discuss repowering with insurers before installation.
One of my laptops once burst into flame and that was scary enough. I immediately unplugged it and the fire was self-limiting. What I found disconcerting about this article is that they don't actually say what it takes to put a Li battery fire out aboard a yacht. Anyone have experience with this? Does it require a different extinguisher?
Also, they cite this resource as useful: The MCA’s Electrical Installations – Guidance for Safe Design, Installation and Operation of Lithium-ion Batteries. Seems like daunting reading.
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By SoggyPaws - 8 Jun 2022
+xHi Daria, A couple of comments to your informative post. -Your first link goes to the same Coast Guard article as the second one. Is there a different article you were referring to? -In the CG article there is no mention of which lithium ion cell technology they are referring to. The safest by far is LiFePO4. This is not the same technology used in cell phones, computers most electric cars and probably electric surfboards. All of which have been far more prone to causing fires than LiFePO4. -With LiFePO4 cells, which are commonly used by cruisers, the chance of a cell by itself starting a fire is very remote for several reasons. It is usually a poor installation or cheap equipment that causes fires. there are many options for how to do the install and what equipment to use, so a bit of research is best. And as we all know, once started, there are many things that can burn on a cruising boat. -Once an electrical fire like that starts all bets are off. It would have been useful to see a recommendation besides fire hoses for what type of extinguisher is best. We have large Halon equivalent extinguishers aboard Soggy Paws. -For anyone considering a LiFePO4 marine installation, we recommend looking at the two most trusted internet sites: MarineHowTo and Nordkyn. They are excellent and provide the detail needed to make a safe install. The FB group Lithium on a Boat is excellent for those who still have questions. Google them. We spent a lot of time on these sites while doing our install 2 years ago. Dave McCampbell SV Soggy Paws Kai Islands, E Indonesia
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By SoggyPaws - 1 Aug 2022
+xHi Daria. Prior to and during the 2 years after our LiFePO4 (LFP) battery installation we have done a lot of reading about this technology, and in particular the risk of fire. I hope you are aware that the surfboards you mention, laptops and even cell phones have a different lithium technology than what cruisers typically install on their boats. According to what the experts say these other lithium types are far more apt to burst into flames than the LFP cells. I am not aware of any LFP batteries that have spontaneously caused a boat fire. Poor wiring, electronic equipment failures or improper use burning insulation and flammable nearby material is the common cause of so called lithium boat fires. The cells and material inside are not really flammable and are very stable even with increasing heat. In fact with reasonable installation precautions they are less likely to cause a problem than their lead acid brothers. The problem is that there have been some spectacular fires on boats with LFP batteries caused by some of the things mentioned above but blamed on the LFP batteries themselves. And now the insurance companies have latched onto that and are looking for ways to reduce their risk. We are comfortable with our installation because we did the research and the installation ourselves. We think that is far safer than not knowing what to do and hiring an installer. Once the installer is gone you are on your own if there is a problem. So our bottom line advice is if you are not willing to learn how to do a proper LFP installation install lead acid instead. Dave McCampbell SV Soggy Paws
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By Dick - 13 Aug 2022
+x+xHi Daria. Prior to and during the 2 years after our LiFePO4 (LFP) battery installation we have done a lot of reading about this technology, and in particular the risk of fire. I hope you are aware that the surfboards you mention, laptops and even cell phones have a different lithium technology than what cruisers typically install on their boats. According to what the experts say these other lithium types are far more apt to burst into flames than the LFP cells. I am not aware of any LFP batteries that have spontaneously caused a boat fire. Poor wiring, electronic equipment failures or improper use burning insulation and flammable nearby material is the common cause of so called lithium boat fires. The cells and material inside are not really flammable and are very stable even with increasing heat. In fact with reasonable installation precautions they are less likely to cause a problem than their lead acid brothers. The problem is that there have been some spectacular fires on boats with LFP batteries caused by some of the things mentioned above but blamed on the LFP batteries themselves. And now the insurance companies have latched onto that and are looking for ways to reduce their risk. We are comfortable with our installation because we did the research and the installation ourselves. We think that is far safer than not knowing what to do and hiring an installer. Once the installer is gone you are on your own if there is a problem. So our bottom line advice is if you are not willing to learn how to do a proper LFP installation install lead acid instead. Dave McCampbell SV Soggy Paws Hi all,
The ABYC has recently put out their guidelines for a lithium install and the requisite safety measures that are necessary. Those who are in the know and who I trust suggest that these guidelines are a good start, but that they have been too influenced by those who have a vested interest in the lithium industry: But that the guidelines are a good start.
It seems likely that the insurance companies will latch onto these guidelines (at least for US boats) as their criteria for insurance.
I would be interested in hearing feedback from those who have installed lithium as to what they think of the guidelines. Unfortunately, I do not have a url for them.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By bbalme - 13 Aug 2022
Looks like the standard costs $75 unless you’re a member of the abyc. Perhaps the OCC is - or would be willing to shell out $75???
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By SoggyPaws - 14 Aug 2022
Hi Dick. If you join FB Group Lithium Batteries on a Boat you can see the summary of the ABYC lithium guide lines. Use the search function. It was discussed just a couple of weeks ago.
Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws
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By Dick - 14 Aug 2022
+xHi Dick. If you join FB Group Lithium Batteries on a Boat you can see the summary of the ABYC lithium guide lines. Use the search function. It was discussed just a couple of weeks ago. Dave McCampbell SV Soggy Paws
Hi Dave,
Good info: thanks for the heads-up.
For those, like me, who don't do FB, an alternaive is to join ABYC as a non-commercial recreational member. This can be a great resource to any mariner, but might be particularly helpful to any skipper who is doing significant projects on his/her boat. I also ask at every boatyard I use (in the US) whether the workers in the field I am using (say electrical work) are ABYC certufied. Not sure whether there is a UK or EU equivalent equivalent to this certification. Too many "specialists" in the boatyards I have used are "on the job" trained, which sometimes is fine, but often is not and are no better (and sometimes worse) than a reasonably handy skipper who can read directions.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By bbalme - 15 Aug 2022
Having reviewed the abyc guidelines as published in FB, it appears that Toodle-oo! - with her Lynx BMS is 100% compliant! Yay!!!
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By SoggyPaws - 15 Aug 2022
Hi Dick,
I think $75 US is a bit steep for that kind of thing. Maybe OCC would do that for those that are not on the Lithium on a Boat FB group. Since it is brand new I wouldn't be surprised to see the requirements on other internet sites soon.
Having been through this as a DIY project and seen results of several projects that did not turn out so well done by a 'qualified' installer, I highly recommend doing this yourself or with help if needed. There are just too many options for equipment and too much that can go wrong if the owner does not take the time to learn how to do a proper installation. Well done Bill!
I have just written a long article for Flying Fish that will cover this and our experience with the rest of the project. Hopefully that will help someone.
Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws
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By DariaBlackwell - 15 Aug 2022
MIN reports that lithium-ion batteries have been the suspected cause of notable marine fires in recent years. That may not bode well for insurance cover.
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By bbalme - 15 Aug 2022
Is that perhaps a little bit of a misleading conclusion?
The Porrimar is a hugely different boat to anything we sail and in only the last sentence does the report make any link to Lithium Ion batteries.
The Porrimar has 8 tons of batteries of unspecified chemistry - that’s a massive source of energy no matter what chemistry - so perhaps it’s a little premature to blame the batteries - and if they were the cause, it would be nice to know the specific chemistry involved.
When I replaced the batteries on Toodle-oo!, I removed 600# of Lead acid and replaced it with about 120# of LFP. By my estimation, 8 tons of similar batteries would amount to around 40,000 AH (12V) - it’s not comparable in any way to a cruising sailboat.
It’s great that the abyc has come out with the guidelines that they have - which seem to be reasonably achievable without undue cost - which hopefully the insurance industry will latch onto.
Our change to LFP has been the single best upgrade I’ve made to our boat - and is being adopted by a large and growing percentage of the cruising population.
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By SoggyPaws - 17 Aug 2022
+xIs that perhaps a little bit of a misleading conclusion?The Porrimar is a hugely different boat to anything we sail and in only the last sentence does the report make any link to Lithium Ion batteries. The Porrimar has 8 tons of batteries of unspecified chemistry - that’s a massive source of energy no matter what chemistry - so perhaps it’s a little premature to blame the batteries - and if they were the cause, it would be nice to know the specific chemistry involved. When I replaced the batteries on Toodle-oo!, I removed 600# of Lead acid and replaced it with about 120# of LFP. By my estimation, 8 tons of similar batteries would amount to around 40,000 AH (12V) - it’s not comparable in any way to a cruising sailboat. It’s great that the abyc has come out with the guidelines that they have - which seem to be reasonably achievable without undue cost - which hopefully the insurance industry will latch onto. Our change to LFP has been the single best upgrade I’ve made to our boat - and is being adopted by a large and growing percentage of the cruising population.
Hi Bill,
I completely agree with you. There is a big difference between these super yacht lithium battery systems and ours. For instance the battery capacities are much larger and Porrimar's decks are entirely covered in solar panels producing many thousands of amps. But the cause of the fire could well have been due to their toys being charged rather than the ship's batteries. Given the size and cost of that boat its electrical system was probably very well done with quality equipment. Maybe not true for the toys and who knows which lithium technology was used in them.
In the Min article on the Porrimar fire that Daria mentions there is a link to an earlier article discussing several other notable fires attributed to lithium batteries. It is here:
https://marineindustrynews.co.uk/insurance-refusals-on-lithium-ion-boats/
Although there is no mention of the specific lithium technology responsible for the fires, most are attributed to charging devices other than the ship's batteries. There are some very interesting comments made in the article that are worth considering by anyone installing LiFePO4 (LFP) in their boats. All the fires I read about appear to be caused during charging. This is where a quality BMS and properly sized relays should be able to save your bacon, especially if you are using LFP! Another reason to have done the research and know what you or your installer are doing. Using inexpensive LFP batteries sealed with an internal MOSFET BMS inside is asking for trouble especially in our marine environment.
And then there is the insurance issue. It is certainly worth checking to see what your insurance underwriter has to say about a LFP install. Some say nothing, some require professional installation, some reduce the coverage and still others will not insure boats with lithium batteries. In my mind the reasonable thing to require of an owner would be that any install must meet ABYC and manufacturer requirements.
Lots to ponder.
Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws
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By Dick - 17 Aug 2022
+x+xIs that perhaps a little bit of a misleading conclusion?The Porrimar is a hugely different boat to anything we sail and in only the last sentence does the report make any link to Lithium Ion batteries. The Porrimar has 8 tons of batteries of unspecified chemistry - that’s a massive source of energy no matter what chemistry - so perhaps it’s a little premature to blame the batteries - and if they were the cause, it would be nice to know the specific chemistry involved. When I replaced the batteries on Toodle-oo!, I removed 600# of Lead acid and replaced it with about 120# of LFP. By my estimation, 8 tons of similar batteries would amount to around 40,000 AH (12V) - it’s not comparable in any way to a cruising sailboat. It’s great that the abyc has come out with the guidelines that they have - which seem to be reasonably achievable without undue cost - which hopefully the insurance industry will latch onto. Our change to LFP has been the single best upgrade I’ve made to our boat - and is being adopted by a large and growing percentage of the cruising population. Hi Bill, I completely agree with you. There is a big difference between these super yacht lithium battery systems and ours. For instance the battery capacities are much larger and Porrimar's decks are entirely covered in solar panels producing many thousands of amps. But the cause of the fire could well have been due to their toys being charged rather than the ship's batteries. Given the size and cost of that boat its electrical system was probably very well done with quality equipment. Maybe not true for the toys and who knows which lithium technology was used in them. In the Min article on the Porrimar fire that Daria mentions there is a link to an earlier article discussing several other notable fires attributed to lithium batteries. It is here: https://marineindustrynews.co.uk/insurance-refusals-on-lithium-ion-boats/Although there is no mention of the specific lithium technology responsible for the fires, most are attributed to charging devices other than the ship's batteries. There are some very interesting comments made in the article that are worth considering by anyone installing LiFePO4 (LFP) in their boats. All the fires I read about appear to be caused during charging. This is where a quality BMS and properly sized relays should be able to save your bacon, especially if you are using LFP! Another reason to have done the research and know what you or your installer are doing. Using inexpensive LFP batteries sealed with an internal MOSFET BMS inside is asking for trouble especially in our marine environment. And then there is the insurance issue. It is certainly worth checking to see what your insurance underwriter has to say about a LFP install. Some say nothing, some require professional installation, some reduce the coverage and still others will not insure boats with lithium batteries. In my mind the reasonable thing to require of an owner would be that any install must meet ABYC and manufacturer requirements. Lots to ponder. Dave McCampbell SV Soggy Paws
Hi Dave,
Lots of good comments.
I particularly appreciate your mentioning the number of products that use lithium batteries and their propensity, rare but well documented, to cause fires. These include battery operated tools, phones computers etc. The tools especially are often stored jumbled up in dank places for long periods.
A couple of quick thoughts in no way exhaustive:
Do not use cheap charging devices such as are flogged at discount places.
Charge only on hard surfaces where there is ample air flow for ventilation.
Do not leave charging unattended.
Charge only as-needed and do not store on charger charging.
Have smoke detectors strategically placed in the boat (generally wise) and charge near them.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Ps. And I very much agree that an owner should be very well acquainted with his/her lithium system to the point where, even if installed by others, it could have been done by the skipper.
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By Andy.Todd - 25 Aug 2022
For anyone who has a subscription to morganscloud.com there is a lot of valuable and, I think contrarian thought given to the subject. In particular, the situation specific nature of risk. The clearly very experienced contributors to the discussion make the point that the most critical failure modes are dependent on the type of sailing a boat does and the people on board.
From our perspective, and I would imagine in common with OCC members, crossing an ocean or cruising remote locations without lead acid batteries carries a high level of risk. If you want the benefits of lithium, but mitigation of this risk you need a dual chemical system. The catch 22 in this is that a dual system in itself creates a significant risk. With current technology and the nature of the market this is only mitigated by having considerable technical expertise on the boat. This rules out the 'getting a professional to install' as you need to be able to maintain, diagnose problems and solve them on the high seas.
So far I've learnt that 'drop-in' batteries should be avoided in favour of prismatic cells and external BMS's. This reinforces the need for technical expertise to design, install and maintain a system. And that the promise of electric cooking, replacing a generator of replacing high volt AC devices with DC devices requires a huge upgrade in charging capacity. There are a number of ways of configuring a dual chemical system, but all of them depend on a mix of technology from different suppliers and a few key components a marginal at best.
Being purely objective about the decision if lead acid works for you now there probably isn't a good reason to consider lithium. ' ...lighter, smaller, don't require same capacity, can be discharged further and last longer' are not good reasons bearing in mind that you will probably have to add and change a lot of components in the system to make it work.
The proponents of lithium (typical on social media) are more likely to be electrical hobbyist than sailors. Many sellers are pushing drop-in because cell/external BMS based systems are more often uniquely designed per boat and can't be economically commoditised.
The reason I'm considering lithium is to give me a safety margin to run critical systems on long passages where I might get a string of cloudy days with no PV and I don't want to burn precious diesel. The best solution I've found so far is a completely self contained Ecoflow Delta. I can charge it of the existing PV or the inverter when there's spare capacity and plug it into the shore power inlet when I'm short of charge in the lead acid house bank. Bonus... I can use it to run 240VAC devices and take it to the beach.
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By Dick - 26 Aug 2022
+xFor anyone who has a subscription to morganscloud.com there is a lot of valuable and, I think contrarian thought given to the subject. In particular, the situation specific nature of risk. The clearly very experienced contributors to the discussion make the point that the most critical failure modes are dependent on the type of sailing a boat does and the people on board. From our perspective, and I would imagine in common with OCC members, crossing an ocean or cruising remote locations without lead acid batteries carries a high level of risk. If you want the benefits of lithium, but mitigation of this risk you need a dual chemical system. The catch 22 in this is that a dual system in itself creates a significant risk. With current technology and the nature of the market this is only mitigated by having considerable technical expertise on the boat. This rules out the 'getting a professional to install' as you need to be able to maintain, diagnose problems and solve them on the high seas. So far I've learnt that 'drop-in' batteries should be avoided in favour of prismatic cells and external BMS's. This reinforces the need for technical expertise to design, install and maintain a system. And that the promise of electric cooking, replacing a generator of replacing high volt AC devices with DC devices requires a huge upgrade in charging capacity. There are a number of ways of configuring a dual chemical system, but all of them depend on a mix of technology from different suppliers and a few key components a marginal at best. Being purely objective about the decision if lead acid works for you now there probably isn't a good reason to consider lithium. ' ...lighter, smaller, don't require same capacity, can be discharged further and last longer' are not good reasons bearing in mind that you will probably have to add and change a lot of components in the system to make it work. The proponents of lithium (typical on social media) are more likely to be electrical hobbyist than sailors. Many sellers are pushing drop-in because cell/external BMS based systems are more often uniquely designed per boat and can't be economically commoditised. The reason I'm considering lithium is to give me a safety margin to run critical systems on long passages where I might get a string of cloudy days with no PV and I don't want to burn precious diesel. The best solution I've found so far is a completely self contained Ecoflow Delta. I can charge it of the existing PV or the inverter when there's spare capacity and plug it into the shore power inlet when I'm short of charge in the lead acid house bank. Bonus... I can use it to run 240VAC devices and take it to the beach.
Hi Andy,
Many good and thoughtful points. I would wish to underline:
Agree completely that the Morgan’s Cloud essays on Lithium and the contributions of readers are very valuable for thinking through an install.
Also agree completely on the need for the skipper (of widely wandering boats) to be so well versed in this new technology that he/she could do the install oneself: even if a commercial installer does the job.
And agree completely about the in-advisability of the purported drop-in batteries, especially for widely wandering vessels).
This tech is changing so rapidly that waiting is probably wise as, I believe, we are not far from a commonly agreed-upon design that is reliable, safe and has some history in field experience.
Many other good points to ponder.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By bbalme - 26 Aug 2022
I’ve seen only a couple of dual chemistry systems and both had severe performance problems - probably because they weren’t installed correctly - but interesting that abyc seems to be wary of such designs too.
I agree that doing the installation oneself is important - at least until some technicians (are there any these days?) learn all the intricacies and foibles of LFP systems - so that if strange things start going on, one can attend to them rapidly.
We did indeed increase our charging system - or more accurately we modified it. We could have maintained our small 260W solar and augmented charging with the generator and still been way ahead of the game since LFP accepts charge so quickly, but we opted to increase our solar to nearly 800W… in the last 90 days we’ve used nearly 300kWh and replaced 270 of that with solar and wind, 20 with the alternator and just 5 with the generator! It’s a quieter life!
We now cook with (mostly) electric and heat water using batteries when the engine has not been run in a while.
I am NOT an electrical hobbyist so it took me a solid 2-3 months of research and planning - and scores of hand drawn wiring diagrams to get comfortable with the design but I’m now at the point where the LFP is far easier to use and maintain than the old wet cells.
We liveaboard full time and travel extensively…
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By SoggyPaws - 26 Aug 2022
+xFor anyone who has a subscription to morganscloud.com there is a lot of valuable and, I think contrarian thought given to the subject. In particular, the situation specific nature of risk. The clearly very experienced contributors to the discussion make the point that the most critical failure modes are dependent on the type of sailing a boat does and the people on board. From our perspective, and I would imagine in common with OCC members, crossing an ocean or cruising remote locations without lead acid batteries carries a high level of risk. If you want the benefits of lithium, but mitigation of this risk you need a dual chemical system. The catch 22 in this is that a dual system in itself creates a significant risk. With current technology and the nature of the market this is only mitigated by having considerable technical expertise on the boat. This rules out the 'getting a professional to install' as you need to be able to maintain, diagnose problems and solve them on the high seas. So far I've learnt that 'drop-in' batteries should be avoided in favour of prismatic cells and external BMS's. This reinforces the need for technical expertise to design, install and maintain a system. And that the promise of electric cooking, replacing a generator of replacing high volt AC devices with DC devices requires a huge upgrade in charging capacity. There are a number of ways of configuring a dual chemical system, but all of them depend on a mix of technology from different suppliers and a few key components a marginal at best. Being purely objective about the decision if lead acid works for you now there probably isn't a good reason to consider lithium. ' ...lighter, smaller, don't require same capacity, can be discharged further and last longer' are not good reasons bearing in mind that you will probably have to add and change a lot of components in the system to make it work. The proponents of lithium (typical on social media) are more likely to be electrical hobbyist than sailors. Many sellers are pushing drop-in because cell/external BMS based systems are more often uniquely designed per boat and can't be economically commoditised. The reason I'm considering lithium is to give me a safety margin to run critical systems on long passages where I might get a string of cloudy days with no PV and I don't want to burn precious diesel. The best solution I've found so far is a completely self contained Ecoflow Delta. I can charge it of the existing PV or the inverter when there's spare capacity and plug it into the shore power inlet when I'm short of charge in the lead acid house bank. Bonus... I can use it to run 240VAC devices and take it to the beach. Hi Andy,
I am not a contributor to MorgansCloud.com, but installed my own LFP system on our cruising catamaran over 2 years ago in the Philippines. We have crossed the Pacific and mostly cruise in remote locations, now in Indonesia, over the past 15 years. Like Bill, my wife and I spent most of a year researching, purchasing, testing and installing our LFP house bank. It is an amazing game changer compared to any lead acid battery system. The advantages are really significant and well worth the effort and expense. I am a Naval officer and oceanographer, not an EE. My wife is a computer programmer. So if we can do it anyone willing to do a bit of study can also.
We believe that any failure will be dependent on the equipment used, the correctness of the installation, and the level of knowledge of the owners and their ability to operate and maintain their system. An LFP installation should start with months of research on trusted websites like Marinehowto.com and Nordkyndesign.com and participation in lithium forums like Lithium Batteries on a Boat. All these sites are for marine installations not EVs or home installs. They are not for ‘hobbyists’. Spending considerable time on these sites and several others should give any reasonably knowledgeable and electrically capable owner enough information to do their own installation. Not doing this and trusting someone else to do the work is where the risk starts.
I agree that using a professional installer is fraught with risk, not only because he/she will not be aboard later, but also because there is increased risk of a problem developing, either from the equipment used or from poor installation techniques. But this is true for any pro installer an owner uses if not monitoring every minute of the install. The solution for this is to do adequate research prior to anyone doing the installation.
“If you want the benefits of lithium, but mitigation of this risk you need a dual chemical system”. I would be interested to know where this statement comes from and the reason for it. I’ve seen many options for how to do a best-practices LFP install, but I have not yet run across this. We use a LFP house bank and lead acid start battery but only because of the convenience of not having LFP protocols for two separate batteries. The lead acid start battery is simple to install and cheap to replace. The LFP house bank is its backup.
I agree that DIY prismatic cells with a quality external relay BMS is much preferred over a Drop In LFP system. But if done right, many of the changes an owner will need to make are the same. And as mentioned earlier a knowledgeable and capable owner is key to a successful install.
We did not change much in the way of charging capability when installing our 540 ahr LFP bank. Of course this depends on how well a boat is set up electrically to begin with. If marginally done, yes much will have to be upgraded. In general it starts with knowing your average daily amp hour usage (ours 160 ah), installing enough LFP to hold over at least 3 days if no charging is possible, and then having enough charging capacity (ours 800 w solar & two 60 a alts) to recharge every few days. Those using lead acid will need more rated battery capacity and more charging capability since they can only use 50% of their rated capacity and need to recharge to a full 100% every day or risk serious loss of service life due to sulfation. Of course if you add additional AC appliances, like the amazing induction cooktop, you may need even more rated capacity and charging capability. None of that is difficult, just costs a bit of cash. But the advantages of LFP in, our opinion, far outweigh the work to be done and expense incurred.
‘The proponents of lithium (typical on social media) are more likely to be electrical hobbyist than sailors’. Maybe this is true. Installing lithium in an electric vehicle or home is certainly different than doing the same on a cruising boat. But some of those on the forums are EEs and know quite a bit about lithium technology. The problem is separating what is true from what is not or is true in some cases but others not. That’s where study on the trusted sites mentioned above is invaluable for a boat owner. If one learns the basic truths first, it is relatively easy to determine which information can be trusted.
Your desire to significantly increase usable battery capacity with a much lighter and physically smaller house bank is partly why we made the decision to install LFP. I recommend you take a long look at the trusted sites above before making a final decision on what to do. There are also some excellent YouTubers like Will Prouse and Andy’s OffGrid Garage that will add to your knowledge. They are very interesting and informative. You might also look at my upcoming article on lithium batteries in the next Flying Fish, our extensive LFP install information on our website link in an earlier post and Bill’s install information.
Finally, I just looked at the Ecoflow Delta add on the web. It looks like a pretty slick, but expensive portable battery power supply, costing about the same as a Honda eu 2000 gas generator. As with our older generation Honda, it could serve as an emergency, but rarely used, source of power, but not a good substitute for a proper LFP house bank. Also, as with all electronic devices you will need a backup. For that reason we carry a spare BMS, cells, and critical electronic components for our LFP system just in case.
Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws
Labuan Bajo, Indonesia
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By Andy.Todd - 26 Aug 2022
Dave, just a correction. You say 'Your desire to significantly increase usable battery capacity with a much lighter and physically smaller house bank,,,etc'. I was quoting Philip's desires and making the point that these may not be good reasons to take some level of risk of changing to all LFP if he has a LA topology that worked for him. Plus the considerable time and effort required to research the subject.... as you and every sensible advisor attests to.
I have a background is in Risk. My assertions are based on this knowledge. In which case just changing from something that has worked for a long time to something new and different has a significant comparative risk. While most users will never suffer the consequence of failure of a LFP system, depending on the situation the consequences of LFP failure are more severe than with LA. That risk can be quantified and for my situation the risk-weighted cost of LFP failure is too high. An answer to this might be a dual chemical approach. The technical challenge is how to do this without increasing risk.
The best argument for 'dual chemical' is on Morganscloud. This means a dual redundant LA / LFP systems. It is not connecting LA and LFP, as there a lot of conflicting advice about on social media. This implies very significant risk such that you would never consider for a boat. RAN sailing on YouTube have the type of dual chemical system I'm referring to, but they use it in a different way than I want. When their LFP goes down they completely disconnects the LFP and switch on an independent LA back up bank.
Because my LA system works fine (logically and operationally) for the most part I want to keep it. I would like a little back up to run critical systems for cloudy days on long off shore passages. The other benefits for amp hungry appliances would be a bonus but not a reason. Commonly this is done by charging the LFP through the LA, but that negates the efficient charging capability of the LFP. An answer could be a charging bus going to an either/or switch normally set to the LFP bank. The LFP charged the LA through a DC/DC converter. The LA is connected to the critical loads, the LFP to the rest. If the LFP goes down you can switch the charging sources to the LA.... except any DC/DC converters on the market seem very marginal for this configuration.
Any insight would be appreciated?
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By bbalme - 27 Aug 2022
Andy, it sounds like you might be best served by simply adding a portable generator to your existing LA system with which you are familiar and comfortable.
If you want a good resource for understanding what’s out there (LFP), along with numerous (nearly) applicable schematics, the Victron website is an excellent place to start - though even that gets rather confusing when you’re drilling down to the nitty gritty details.
I’m no longer a participant on Morgan’s Cloud, but agree it’s a reasonable (if opinionated) resource. My problem with the site was that Harries is so risk averse that to follow many of his recommendations would require more finance than I have at my disposal! Dual electrical systems seems to be following that general pattern!
Hope you find the right solution for your requirements!
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By Andy.Todd - 27 Aug 2022
Bill, I have a background in risk of technical system. I have a diesel generator on the boat and I understand the technology, probably better than most. The issue for me is all and simply about risk. It is not about the technology, although technology probably has an answer to the risk problem. I'm hoping someone can point me at it??
I want to reduce the risk of running out of power on a string of cloudy days on long passages to keep critical systems going. Any configuration (including anything derived from Victron's information) has risk. Any differential risk analysis tells us that introducing LFP, with any of the current system topologies or commercially available devices significantly increases risk. In my particular case the risk differential is exacerbated as if push comes to shove I can turn the generator on.
In technology terms a system that allows an EXISTING LA bank and a new LFP bank to be charged appropriately and is able to run loads from either bank is needed. There are diagrams that suggest this can be done, but some of the critical components are marginal at best in these configurations.
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By SoggyPaws - 29 Aug 2022
+xBill, I have a background in risk of technical system. I have a diesel generator on the boat and I understand the technology, probably better than most. The issue for me is all and simply about risk. It is not about the technology, although technology probably has an answer to the risk problem. I'm hoping someone can point me at it?? I want to reduce the risk of running out of power on a string of cloudy days on long passages to keep critical systems going. Any configuration (including anything derived from Victron's information) has risk. Any differential risk analysis tells us that introducing LFP, with any of the current system topologies or commercially available devices significantly increases risk. In my particular case the risk differential is exacerbated as if push comes to shove I can turn the generator on. In technology terms a system that allows an EXISTING LA bank and a new LFP bank to be charged appropriately and is able to run loads from either bank is needed. There are diagrams that suggest this can be done, but some of the critical components are marginal at best in these configurations.
Andy,
I don’t have a degree in risk management, but have enough electrical maintenance and repair experience to know a dangerous situation when I see one. We all have a different tolerance for risk. Ours is pretty low since we are full time cruising overseas and one mistake could have dire consequences. There are by now probably thousands of experienced cruisers that have installed LFP batteries in their boats, and evidently feel that the significant advantages are worth the risk. Reading general/cruiser social media forums and reports about undetermined cause fires on boats with lithium batteries will not help you assess the risk in doing a proper LFP install.
I’m curious where did this statement come from?
“Any differential risk analysis tells us that introducing LFP, with any of the current system topologies or commercially available devices significantly increases risk”.
In all the extensive research I have done on lithium batteries I have never seen anything like that. In fact properly installing and using LFP batteries is, according to most electrical experts with significant LA AND LFP battery experience, less dangerous/risky than using LA batteries, especially as they age. “Properly” is the key word here. This opinion comes from the trusted websites (add Battery University to those) I mentioned in earlier posts, not from cruising social media sites with a mixed bag of accurate opinions. Of course there are several options for installing a LFP system, some, especially drop in installs and those done with inexpensive and inappropriate equipment, have more chance of having a problem than others.
The required BMS for all LFP installation adds another level of safety not present in a LA install. And the cells themselves rarely fail after the first 6 months of use and never due to anything like spontaneous combustion. Additional security for overseas cruisers like us from a failure can easily be mitigated by carrying an additional BMS, a extra cell or two and a few other inexpensive components. Cruising overseas we believe you can never have too many spares.
Installing a dual chemical LFP/LA system only complicates your electrical system and will not solve your running out of amps problem long term. But it does increase the risk of a failure. If you are worried about that see my comments above about system design that ensures you will have sufficient holdover house bank capacity for at least 3 days. Beyond that just use your alternators if underway or portable generator if in port. Simple. If you want to discuss how to easily charge both a LFP house bank and LA start battery we can do that.
We believe that anyone that has not actually done a proper DIY LFP install is hardly experienced enough to render a trusted opinion regarding any LFP vs LA battery risk. I don’t know where the Morgan’s Cloud forum falls. We all have to make our own decisions about what to put on our boats. But relying on cruiser social media will get you good and bad opinions, and unless you have sufficient knowledge from prior research, it will be hard to separate the two.
Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws
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By Andy.Todd - 29 Aug 2022
David, As I said, it is all about 'risk', NOT technology. By 'differential' I mean the increase in risk due to change. No matter what you finish up with 'changing' (sails, batteries, the color of your upholstery, direction of travel etc.) you are likely to introduce risk. In this case it's high and because the power system is critical to my particular sailing requirements the consequences of failure are high.
You've made the change so you are past the point where the this particular element of risk is incurred. If I was starting with an empty boat I'd go LI. I'm looking for a technical solution that allows me to keep what I've got, but add the benefits in LI without increasing risk. That ought to be possible.
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By bbalme - 29 Aug 2022
Andy, you’ve obviously given this a lot of thought - what are you coming up with (strategy/components) that most closely meet your goals/desires?
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By DariaBlackwell - 30 Sep 2022
There's a new Lithium battery that claims it cannot catch fire. SAFE-Li is the new 340hp lithium-cobalt battery from SEALENCE.One to watch.
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By SoggyPaws - 30 Sep 2022
Hi Daria,
At 550kg, 450v and 250KW the Sealence batteries are far too large to be used as a house bank on any reasonably sized cruising boat. And they look pretty expensive.
LiFePO4 don't self ignite either. See the recent definitive information below from the President of ABYC on this subject.
Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws
September 2022 Newsletter
ABYC President's Message
Common Sense
ABYC is built on a tradition of common sense and real world experiences. Early in my technical days, I was told ABYC designed the Standards so the backyard boatbuilder could achieve desired results. Testing and methodology were crafted in plain language for a “common sense” approach to a safe product.
We did not set aside best engineering practices for simplicity; the technical committee is packed with engineers and data-crunchers overseeing the process of drafting and updating the Standards. This balance has helped ABYC create useable, reliable, and relevant documents that help to achieve an unmatched level of safety in our industry. This is why, when the US Coast Guard asked us to look into potential problems with Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO 4) batteries on boats, we jumped at the chance.
The ABYC Technical Department, with input from the industry, recreated a number of scenarios based on accident narratives that claimed LiFePO 4 batteries to be the cause of a fire. In our on-site test lab, our team subjected batteries to conditions ranging from “normal” operations to extreme use and abuse. We purchased units built for the marine environment with robust battery management systems. We also included recycled batteries available from mass retailers, with an “optional” battery management system and no clear instructions from the battery or cell manufacturer. We tried to replicate sketchy behavior which is the fear of insurance companies and regulators alike.
Do you know what we found? We couldn’t start the fire (Sorry Billy Joel). We witnessed swollen cells, completely dead batteries, and multiple safety cutoffs (when not bypassed). We had a very hot summer here in MD. Even the high heat didn’t come close to a spontaneous combustion scenario.
We arranged calls with industry experts, and we asked them what we might be missing in our testing. What can we throw at these batteries to replicate the accidents we were hearing about? No one had anything to add, short of putting these batteries directly in a fire (which we did). We were able to add LiFePO 4 batteries to a local International Association of Arson Investigators (IAAI) boat burn--even there, no one detected any indication that the batteries themselves contributed to the fire. Many of us were fully expecting a report where we were able to replicate an unsafe situation and make some recommendations.
Our full report will be sent to the USCG in due course, and then ABYC will report on our findings. This being a mere President's letter please take it as what it is: My observations while watching our Technical Department do some great work. But, the research and testing may show us that we must take this discussion to the test labs for another round. Our common sense approach to testing has proven again to be the foundation for getting to the bottom of a scenario many of us (including myself) thought would reveal itself in short order. Stand by for formal reporting as we continue our work.
- John
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By Sonia.Johal - 31 Oct 2022
HYBRID AGM & LiPO batteries
———————-
Hello Team OCC,
For anyone who is familiar with the new “Hymer” motorhome hybrid battery system, please would you share your recommendations 👋.
I’m planning on installing their hybrid AGM/Lithium phosphate batteries called “BOS batteries” using their “LE300 modules” attached to my boat’s existing 460Ah AGM batteries, that were installed earlier this year.
I already have my Victron Energy 3kw inverter, an mppt, 120amp Diesel engine alternator, 90amp DC-DC charger and a 655w solar panel installed.
Benefits according to Force Four include cost effectiveness, as the LE300 modules significantly increase the life span of the AGM batteries to over ten years.
Grateful for your advice and feedback.
Best wishes,
Sonia
SY Salacia
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By Stefan.Ecke - 1 Nov 2022
+x[quote]hello Sonia,
I installed a LE 300 package with 4 units. It´s working fine and the installation is quite easy. I read that you have a big inverter. For that you must have a look for the maximum current the unit is able to deliver. In my case it only give the half current and the other part is comming from the LA bank. And my inverter is much smaler than yours (1200Wp). For 3000 W you need a big pack if you need the hole power. Best regards from greece, Stefan
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By Sonia.Johal - 1 Nov 2022
Thanks Stefan,
That’s brilliant news, as these hybrid batteries are so much more cost effective than standard lithium phosphate batteries, as well as being safer than lithium ones.
I shall stick to my plan and thanks so much for your kind reassurance.
Best wishes and fair winds,
Sonia
SY Salacia
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By Dick - 1 Nov 2022
+xThanks Stefan,That’s brilliant news, as these hybrid batteries are so much more cost effective than standard lithium phosphate batteries, as well as being safer than lithium ones.I shall stick to my plan and thanks so much for your kind reassurance.Best wishes and fair winds,SoniaSY Salacia
Hi Sonia and Stefan,
I hate to be a damp blanket, but I am not sure I would concur that any Lithium battery installation could (or should) be to the point where a skipper would call it “quite easy”. I invite others with lithium installs to weigh in.
I have been following lithium installs for a good while now and they have made significant progress, but I do not believe they are yet ready for plug ‘n play use. I know some of the “drop-in” lithium sales people would have it so, but I believe they are more interested in making sales than in a wise installation that is safe and reliable.
Firstly, A lithium install often demands a complete design and/or re-design of your vessel’s electrical system. This certainly involves every charging system, alternator and regulator, battery charger, solar regulator, etc. Wiring and fusing often need to be upgraded to deal with the increased amperage that can occur. And integrating the BMS (battery management system) with the various parts of the system to ensure safety and reliability can be quite challenging. There also needs to be plans to ensure mission critical systems (nav lights, GPS, etc.) are powered in case the lithium drop out in a load dump.
I also think at this time and anticipating a first long passage, that a skipper should be so well versed in lithium chemistry, installation management etc. that he/she could have done the install on their own, even if they chose someone else to do it (this is to facilitate trouble shooting when/if it is needed). I would also suggest reading the recent ABYC suggestions for lithium installations: I am not sure whether RCD/CE in the EU have suggested requirements as yet.
Again, I hope others comment.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By SoggyPaws - 2 Nov 2022
+x+xThanks Stefan,That’s brilliant news, as these hybrid batteries are so much more cost effective than standard lithium phosphate batteries, as well as being safer than lithium ones.I shall stick to my plan and thanks so much for your kind reassurance.Best wishes and fair winds,SoniaSY Salacia Hi Sonia and Stefan, I hate to be a damp blanket, but I am not sure I would concur that any Lithium battery installation could (or should) be to the point where a skipper would call it “quite easy”. I invite others with lithium installs to weigh in. I have been following lithium installs for a good while now and they have made significant progress, but I do not believe they are yet ready for plug ‘n play use. I know some of the “drop-in” lithium sales people would have it so, but I believe they are more interested in making sales than in a wise installation that is safe and reliable. Firstly, A lithium install often demands a complete design and/or re-design of your vessel’s electrical system. This certainly involves every charging system, alternator and regulator, battery charger, solar regulator, etc. Wiring and fusing often need to be upgraded to deal with the increased amperage that can occur. And integrating the BMS (battery management system) with the various parts of the system to ensure safety and reliability can be quite challenging. There also needs to be plans to ensure mission critical systems (nav lights, GPS, etc.) are powered in case the lithium drop out in a load dump. I also think at this time and anticipating a first long passage, that a skipper should be so well versed in lithium chemistry, installation management etc. that he/she could have done the install on their own, even if they chose someone else to do it (this is to facilitate trouble shooting when/if it is needed). I would also suggest reading the recent ABYC suggestions for lithium installations: I am not sure whether RCD/CE in the EU have suggested requirements as yet. Again, I hope others comment. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Sonia,
I agree with all Dick has said above, especially that the boat owner should be fully involved, if not do the work himself, on any marine lithium/LFP system. Installing a LFP battery system is certainly not an easy project if you want a 'best practice' installation that you can use for long term overseas cruising. There are certainly shortcuts that can be taken, including using an installer that will most likely want to do a preassembled/drop in system. It is somewhat easier and more lucrative for him to do, since the battery box and BMS installation are already done. But there is much more to a good installation than that! And with a drop in system you lose some of the safety features and the ability to make repairs of a DIY system. If you are not familiar with what they are look at some of the posts above or read the Marine How To and Nordkyn websites that describe the differences.
You should know that the LFP market is very competitive right now. Some dealers have made claims about their products that just are not true. And there is a huge range of equipment options, some much better than others. I seriously doubt that the Hymer batteries you mention are "safer and more cost effective" than a properly done quality DIY system. Every drop in system I have ever looked at is just the opposite. Can you give us a link and some details as to why you think that? What will this install cost you, and what spares and tools will you carry in case of a problem later on? It is a worthwhile discussion for this forum.
I am not familiar with the Hymer hybrid battery system, however, I do know how a hybrid system is supposed to work. We have been using a quality DIY LFP system we installed ourselves for over 2 years now. It took us almost a year to do the research, order the equipment and do the install. There are some significant problems with some preassembled/drop in systems. Best you research this carefully rather than just believe a dealers' hype. A good place to do that is on the FB Group 'Lithium Batteries on a Boat'. There are some really knowledgeable long term users and experts on that forum that can better advise you. There are also a couple of trusted very detailed internet website resources mentioned in my first para above that would be worth reading.
Finally, Flying Fish will be running an article with our thoughts on doing a LFP install this month. This is not an easy project to get a handle on, but because of the cost and complexity it is best to not take shortcuts and try to get it right the first time. That takes time and study.
Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws
In Indonesia
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By Stefan.Ecke - 2 Nov 2022
+x+xThanks Stefan,That’s brilliant news, as these hybrid batteries are so much more cost effective than standard lithium phosphate batteries, as well as being safer than lithium ones.I shall stick to my plan and thanks so much for your kind reassurance.Best wishes and fair winds,SoniaSY Salacia Hi Sonia and Stefan, I hate to be a damp blanket, but I am not sure I would concur that any Lithium battery installation could (or should) be to the point where a skipper would call it “quite easy”. I invite others with lithium installs to weigh in. I have been following lithium installs for a good while now and they have made significant progress, but I do not believe they are yet ready for plug ‘n play use. I know some of the “drop-in” lithium sales people would have it so, but I believe they are more interested in making sales than in a wise installation that is safe and reliable. Firstly, A lithium install often demands a complete design and/or re-design of your vessel’s electrical system. This certainly involves every charging system, alternator and regulator, battery charger, solar regulator, etc. Wiring and fusing often need to be upgraded to deal with the increased amperage that can occur. And integrating the BMS (battery management system) with the various parts of the system to ensure safety and reliability can be quite challenging. There also needs to be plans to ensure mission critical systems (nav lights, GPS, etc.) are powered in case the lithium drop out in a load dump. I also think at this time and anticipating a first long passage, that a skipper should be so well versed in lithium chemistry, installation management etc. that he/she could have done the install on their own, even if they chose someone else to do it (this is to facilitate trouble shooting when/if it is needed). I would also suggest reading the recent ABYC suggestions for lithium installations: I am not sure whether RCD/CE in the EU have suggested requirements as yet. Again, I hope others comment. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Thank you Dick, that you remember me why I hate forums. You always find somebody who write something negative without reading the question. Sonia ask something about the LE 300 from the company BOS. Not more. So, read and anderstand. Stefan
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By Dick - 2 Nov 2022
+x+x+xThanks Stefan,That’s brilliant news, as these hybrid batteries are so much more cost effective than standard lithium phosphate batteries, as well as being safer than lithium ones.I shall stick to my plan and thanks so much for your kind reassurance.Best wishes and fair winds,SoniaSY Salacia Hi Sonia and Stefan, I hate to be a damp blanket, but I am not sure I would concur that any Lithium battery installation could (or should) be to the point where a skipper would call it “quite easy”. I invite others with lithium installs to weigh in. I have been following lithium installs for a good while now and they have made significant progress, but I do not believe they are yet ready for plug ‘n play use. I know some of the “drop-in” lithium sales people would have it so, but I believe they are more interested in making sales than in a wise installation that is safe and reliable. Firstly, A lithium install often demands a complete design and/or re-design of your vessel’s electrical system. This certainly involves every charging system, alternator and regulator, battery charger, solar regulator, etc. Wiring and fusing often need to be upgraded to deal with the increased amperage that can occur. And integrating the BMS (battery management system) with the various parts of the system to ensure safety and reliability can be quite challenging. There also needs to be plans to ensure mission critical systems (nav lights, GPS, etc.) are powered in case the lithium drop out in a load dump. I also think at this time and anticipating a first long passage, that a skipper should be so well versed in lithium chemistry, installation management etc. that he/she could have done the install on their own, even if they chose someone else to do it (this is to facilitate trouble shooting when/if it is needed). I would also suggest reading the recent ABYC suggestions for lithium installations: I am not sure whether RCD/CE in the EU have suggested requirements as yet. Again, I hope others comment. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy Thank you Dick, that you remember me why I hate forums. You always find somebody who write something negative without reading the question. Sonia ask something about the LE 300 from the company BOS. Not more. So, read and anderstand. Stefan
Hi Stefan,
I am sorry I offended you. That was not my intention, although I knew, as I said in the first sentence, that what I was writing might not be received comfortably.
If I missed something and went down a wrong pathway, then I would hope that you could gently re-direct me rather than using me as an example of what is wrong on forums. I would also hope that you, as a fellow member of OCC, would extend to me the presumption that I was writing in good faith and I would also hope that my writings in the Forum reflect that my interests are searching for best and safe practices for a widely wandering sailboat.
I stand by what I see as the present state of lithium battery installations for a boat that is widely wandering and where safety and reliability are paramount. I wrote what I wrote as one cruiser’s thoughts on a mission critical system. I did not condemn lithium; I know friends who have done installs that are safe and reliable, but none of them would have described the install as “quite easy”, although I recognize that you experienced it as such.
I was writing for someone who is not a seasoned sailor doing their first offshore passage. A vessel mid ocean should have, to my mind, the mission critical elements of their boat be gear be bullet-proof: that there is a history of field reports over time substantiating safety and reliability. Lithium is changing rapidly, but I do think that those wandering widely with lithium are still what I call early adapters. I have friends, very experienced skippers all, who have done this successfully and they have worked hard and long to make it work.
I suspect most boats will be lithium powered in the not-too-distant future and, as is still occurring, changing and evolving, safety and reliability will be established.
\My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By Sonia.Johal - 2 Nov 2022
HYBRID LITHIUM BATTERIES
Many thanks Team OCC,
I appreciate your comprehensive consideration and most useful responses, in advance of my purchase.
For your further information, I attach the force4 chandlery link to these new batteries;
https://www.force4.co.uk/item/BOS/LE300-Lithium-Extension-Battery-System/29WZ
I’m most grateful for all your help and feedback, especially as my budget is tight and I endeavour to make use of my existing AGM battery bank.
Best wishes and fair winds,
Sonia
SY Salacia
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By Sonia.Johal - 2 Nov 2022
LINK TO HYBRID LiPo BATTERY DATASHEET
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By simoncurrin - 7 Nov 2022
I’ve been following this thread for ages and we had resolved to replace AGM’s with AGM’s. However, we have now been convinced to take the plunge and move to LiFePO. In preparation for the installers arrival I have burrowed deep into the bilges to expose the entire bank and have found one case split wide open and one blown. I expect the split one was a result of frost damage. No wonder we have been using the generator so much!
Installation starts tomorrow.
Simon
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By SoggyPaws - 7 Nov 2022
+xI’ve been following this thread for ages and we had resolved to replace AGM’s with AGM’s. However, we have now been convinced to take the plunge and move to LiFePO. In preparation for the installers arrival I have burrowed deep into the bilges to expose the entire bank and have found one case split wide open and one blown. I expect the split one was a result of frost damage. No wonder we have been using the generator so much!Installation starts tomorrow. Simon
Hi Simon,
Great idea! It will really change your cruising life for the better for a long time to come. Hope you have done your homework so you can keep up with the installer's ideas. I'm happy to answer and questions or concerns based on our experience. Pls let us know how it all turns out.
Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws
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By bbalme - 7 Nov 2022
What sort of system/components are you looking at Simon?
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By simoncurrin - 7 Nov 2022
Bill
The installation.has been designed here in White Stones by Hank George whom I am sure you know. I have no electrical expertise and have been trying to grapple with the science and Hank has been very patient. Most of the components are, or will be Victron, the batteries are Blue Heron 8 x105 amp hours and we are changing our alternator regular to a modern Balmar. Our wind generator regulator is 16 years old and cannot be programmed for lithiums and I believe we are having Victron DC / DC converter so that we can still use that.
I’ll post updates as the work happens. There are many new isolators and fuses going into our circuitry too. Here’s a picture of our shattered AGM.
Simon
 +xWhat sort of system/components are you looking at Simon?
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By bbalme - 7 Nov 2022
Hank will steer you right. Please say hello to him from me.
That’s quite a lot of AH - we only have 600 and we’re a heavy consumer… I recon Hank is trying to up-sell you!!! ;-)
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By simoncurrin - 7 Nov 2022
No he’s not upselling. The bank is currently configured as 460 Amp hours at 24 volt so he is simply occupying the existing footprint of the cells we have. But I agree we should end up with a lot more useable power.
Simon
+xHank will steer you right. Please say hello to him from me. That’s quite a lot of AH - we only have 600 and we’re a heavy consumer… I recon Hank is trying to up-sell you!!! ;-)
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By bbalme - 8 Nov 2022
Poor attempt at humor - Hank is a stand up guy and would only sell what he genuinely believes is required.
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By simoncurrin - 17 Nov 2022
It’s done! After 2 weeks of head scratching and digging deep into the piggy bank we now have 840 amp hours of LiFePO battery installed and a fully functioning charging system tailored to our boat’s needs and design. Thank you Hank George for your patience, oversight and ingenuity.
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By Wild.Bird - 17 Sep 2023
Interesting reading all the comments on lithium.
I built my own 280Ah 24v ( equivalent to 560Ah at 12v) battery using CATL cells purchased in the USA. I had them shipped to Antigua.
I used a JK 200A BMS with 2A active balance.
The convertion to lithium has been a game changer for us.
The 720w of solar we have used to harvest circa 2kWh per day when connected to our lead domestic bank. That same solar now harvests over 3kWh per day. The simple fact with lithium is that you dont need to get the battery full every day to maximise its life like you do with lead. Infact, keeping the battery below 90% full, will lengthen the life of lithium. As a result, we can use more battery capacity and keep the lithium battery on bulk charge, rarely floating the battery.
We now do 95% of our cooking on an induction hob. We boil the kettle on the induction hob. We use the immersion heater for hot water and we make water with our 220v watermaker all through a 3000w low frequency inverter.
We added 4x50w flesible panels on a canvas backing that are our roving panels for when anchored. They fold up in to the space of a single 50w panel when not in use. With this additional 200w of solar we are averaging 3.6kWh per day of solar harvest. More than enough to run all our loads electrically.
Our propane consumption is now negligible. We only use the gas cooker at sea, when our portable hob is stowed.
With the increasing number of people moving to lithium there are a few things to note.
24v boats are ideal for lithium. The load limiting factor is the BMS. They are rated in amps. If you are a 24v boat, you half the amp draw off your 24v battery.
Two lithium batteries is the ideal number. This actually needs to match your load but 2 batteries is way better than 4 batteries.
When you install multiple batteries in series, it can be difficult to balance the batteries with each other. This can result in one battery being dominant and taking most of the load. It can cause battery shut down of the highest or lowest charged battery in extreme cases. Parallel is less of a problem but balancing can still be an issue.
I am currently building a second lithium battery of a smaller size. 105Ah. It will use the same JK BMS and it be wired in parallel to the existing 280Ah battery. This will give me resilience should one BMS fail. It will allow me to carry on whilst we replace a BMS, etc.
The additional capacity will allow us to get through a few cloudy days without having to resort to the diesel generator.
Don't under estimate how much rewiring you may need to do to accommodate lithium. There is no such thing as a drop in replacement battery.
Stay clear of cheap lithium batteries. It is far better to build your own with cells from a known source and a good BMS than buy something in a sealed box that you know nothing about. The cost of building your own battery is about half the cost of a cheap drop in lithium battery.
Building your own battery also allows you to install the battery in a ventilated battery box. If you sail in the tropics, heat is not your friend. Cooling drop in lithium batteries isnt possible. The BMS mosfets make considerable heat when charging and particularly discharging. This heat cannot escape a sealed box. By comparison, a diy battery can easily accommodate forced ventilation.
Lithium and solar were made for each other. Maximise your solar install.
Speak,to your insurance company. Mine were happy for me to install lithium
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By simoncurrin - 18 Sep 2023
Thank you very much for this write-up of your recent experience. We had some battery balancing issues which we eventually resolved with a battery balancer and some tweaks to the wiring. Well worth the effort though.
Simon
+xInteresting reading all the comments on lithium. I built my own 280Ah 24v ( equivalent to 560Ah at 12v) battery using CATL cells purchased in the USA. I had them shipped to Antigua. I used a JK 200A BMS with 2A active balance. The convertion to lithium has been a game changer for us. The 720w of solar we have used to harvest circa 2kWh per day when connected to our lead domestic bank. That same solar now harvests over 3kWh per day. The simple fact with lithium is that you dont need to get the battery full every day to maximise its life like you do with lead. Infact, keeping the battery below 90% full, will lengthen the life of lithium. As a result, we can use more battery capacity and keep the lithium battery on bulk charge, rarely floating the battery. We now do 95% of our cooking on an induction hob. We boil the kettle on the induction hob. We use the immersion heater for hot water and we make water with our 220v watermaker all through a 3000w low frequency inverter. We added 4x50w flesible panels on a canvas backing that are our roving panels for when anchored. They fold up in to the space of a single 50w panel when not in use. With this additional 200w of solar we are averaging 3.6kWh per day of solar harvest. More than enough to run all our loads electrically. Our propane consumption is now negligible. We only use the gas cooker at sea, when our portable hob is stowed. With the increasing number of people moving to lithium there are a few things to note. 24v boats are ideal for lithium. The load limiting factor is the BMS. They are rated in amps. If you are a 24v boat, you half the amp draw off your 24v battery. Two lithium batteries is the ideal number. This actually needs to match your load but 2 batteries is way better than 4 batteries. When you install multiple batteries in series, it can be difficult to balance the batteries with each other. This can result in one battery being dominant and taking most of the load. It can cause battery shut down of the highest or lowest charged battery in extreme cases. Parallel is less of a problem but balancing can still be an issue. I am currently building a second lithium battery of a smaller size. 105Ah. It will use the same JK BMS and it be wired in parallel to the existing 280Ah battery. This will give me resilience should one BMS fail. It will allow me to carry on whilst we replace a BMS, etc. The additional capacity will allow us to get through a few cloudy days without having to resort to the diesel generator. Don't under estimate how much rewiring you may need to do to accommodate lithium. There is no such thing as a drop in replacement battery. Stay clear of cheap lithium batteries. It is far better to build your own with cells from a known source and a good BMS than buy something in a sealed box that you know nothing about. The cost of building your own battery is about half the cost of a cheap drop in lithium battery. Building your own battery also allows you to install the battery in a ventilated battery box. If you sail in the tropics, heat is not your friend. Cooling drop in lithium batteries isnt possible. The BMS mosfets make considerable heat when charging and particularly discharging. This heat cannot escape a sealed box. By comparison, a diy battery can easily accommodate forced ventilation. Lithium and solar were made for each other. Maximise your solar install. Speak,to your insurance company. Mine were happy for me to install lithium
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By Wild.Bird - 18 Sep 2023
+xThank you very much for this write-up of your recent experience. We had some battery balancing issues which we eventually resolved with a battery balancer and some tweaks to the wiring. Well worth the effort though. Simon +xInteresting reading all the comments on lithium. I built my own 280Ah 24v ( equivalent to 560Ah at 12v) battery using CATL cells purchased in the USA. I had them shipped to Antigua. I used a JK 200A BMS with 2A active balance. The convertion to lithium has been a game changer for us. The 720w of solar we have used to harvest circa 2kWh per day when connected to our lead domestic bank. That same solar now harvests over 3kWh per day. The simple fact with lithium is that you dont need to get the battery full every day to maximise its life like you do with lead. Infact, keeping the battery below 90% full, will lengthen the life of lithium. As a result, we can use more battery capacity and keep the lithium battery on bulk charge, rarely floating the battery. We now do 95% of our cooking on an induction hob. We boil the kettle on the induction hob. We use the immersion heater for hot water and we make water with our 220v watermaker all through a 3000w low frequency inverter. We added 4x50w flesible panels on a canvas backing that are our roving panels for when anchored. They fold up in to the space of a single 50w panel when not in use. With this additional 200w of solar we are averaging 3.6kWh per day of solar harvest. More than enough to run all our loads electrically. Our propane consumption is now negligible. We only use the gas cooker at sea, when our portable hob is stowed. With the increasing number of people moving to lithium there are a few things to note. 24v boats are ideal for lithium. The load limiting factor is the BMS. They are rated in amps. If you are a 24v boat, you half the amp draw off your 24v battery. Two lithium batteries is the ideal number. This actually needs to match your load but 2 batteries is way better than 4 batteries. When you install multiple batteries in series, it can be difficult to balance the batteries with each other. This can result in one battery being dominant and taking most of the load. It can cause battery shut down of the highest or lowest charged battery in extreme cases. Parallel is less of a problem but balancing can still be an issue. I am currently building a second lithium battery of a smaller size. 105Ah. It will use the same JK BMS and it be wired in parallel to the existing 280Ah battery. This will give me resilience should one BMS fail. It will allow me to carry on whilst we replace a BMS, etc. The additional capacity will allow us to get through a few cloudy days without having to resort to the diesel generator. Don't under estimate how much rewiring you may need to do to accommodate lithium. There is no such thing as a drop in replacement battery. Stay clear of cheap lithium batteries. It is far better to build your own with cells from a known source and a good BMS than buy something in a sealed box that you know nothing about. The cost of building your own battery is about half the cost of a cheap drop in lithium battery. Building your own battery also allows you to install the battery in a ventilated battery box. If you sail in the tropics, heat is not your friend. Cooling drop in lithium batteries isnt possible. The BMS mosfets make considerable heat when charging and particularly discharging. This heat cannot escape a sealed box. By comparison, a diy battery can easily accommodate forced ventilation. Lithium and solar were made for each other. Maximise your solar install. Speak,to your insurance company. Mine were happy for me to install lithium
We have been using Victron Battery balancers for several years on our lead batteries. We still use one on the pair of 12v starter batteries that are configured in series to give us 24v. They work really well. We actually ran different sized batteries for several years as we struggled to get new batteries in Panama. The balancer sorted it out
Tim
s/v Wild Bird
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By SoggyPaws - 20 Sep 2023
+xInteresting reading all the comments on lithium. I built my own 280Ah 24v ( equivalent to 560Ah at 12v) battery using CATL cells purchased in the USA. I had them shipped to Antigua. I used a JK 200A BMS with 2A active balance. The convertion to lithium has been a game changer for us. The 720w of solar we have used to harvest circa 2kWh per day when connected to our lead domestic bank. That same solar now harvests over 3kWh per day. The simple fact with lithium is that you dont need to get the battery full every day to maximise its life like you do with lead. Infact, keeping the battery below 90% full, will lengthen the life of lithium. As a result, we can use more battery capacity and keep the lithium battery on bulk charge, rarely floating the battery. We now do 95% of our cooking on an induction hob. We boil the kettle on the induction hob. We use the immersion heater for hot water and we make water with our 220v watermaker all through a 3000w low frequency inverter. We added 4x50w flesible panels on a canvas backing that are our roving panels for when anchored. They fold up in to the space of a single 50w panel when not in use. With this additional 200w of solar we are averaging 3.6kWh per day of solar harvest. More than enough to run all our loads electrically. Our propane consumption is now negligible. We only use the gas cooker at sea, when our portable hob is stowed. With the increasing number of people moving to lithium there are a few things to note. 24v boats are ideal for lithium. The load limiting factor is the BMS. They are rated in amps. If you are a 24v boat, you half the amp draw off your 24v battery. Two lithium batteries is the ideal number. This actually needs to match your load but 2 batteries is way better than 4 batteries. When you install multiple batteries in series, it can be difficult to balance the batteries with each other. This can result in one battery being dominant and taking most of the load. It can cause battery shut down of the highest or lowest charged battery in extreme cases. Parallel is less of a problem but balancing can still be an issue. I am currently building a second lithium battery of a smaller size. 105Ah. It will use the same JK BMS and it be wired in parallel to the existing 280Ah battery. This will give me resilience should one BMS fail. It will allow me to carry on whilst we replace a BMS, etc. The additional capacity will allow us to get through a few cloudy days without having to resort to the diesel generator. Don't under estimate how much rewiring you may need to do to accommodate lithium. There is no such thing as a drop in replacement battery. Stay clear of cheap lithium batteries. It is far better to build your own with cells from a known source and a good BMS than buy something in a sealed box that you know nothing about. The cost of building your own battery is about half the cost of a cheap drop in lithium battery. Building your own battery also allows you to install the battery in a ventilated battery box. If you sail in the tropics, heat is not your friend. Cooling drop in lithium batteries isnt possible. The BMS mosfets make considerable heat when charging and particularly discharging. This heat cannot escape a sealed box. By comparison, a diy battery can easily accommodate forced ventilation. Lithium and solar were made for each other. Maximise your solar install. Speak,to your insurance company. Mine were happy for me to install lithium
Interesting comments on your system. Seems everyone's system ends up different. We ended up with 540 ahrs LFP and 800 watts of panels for 160 ahrs daily usage. Works very well here in the tropics of SE Asia. Good advice at the end, especially of using quality equipment; it does not have to be expensive. Enjoy your cruising.
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By Wild.Bird - 20 Sep 2023
+x+xInteresting reading all the comments on lithium. I built my own 280Ah 24v ( equivalent to 560Ah at 12v) battery using CATL cells purchased in the USA. I had them shipped to Antigua. I used a JK 200A BMS with 2A active balance. The convertion to lithium has been a game changer for us. The 720w of solar we have used to harvest circa 2kWh per day when connected to our lead domestic bank. That same solar now harvests over 3kWh per day. The simple fact with lithium is that you dont need to get the battery full every day to maximise its life like you do with lead. Infact, keeping the battery below 90% full, will lengthen the life of lithium. As a result, we can use more battery capacity and keep the lithium battery on bulk charge, rarely floating the battery. We now do 95% of our cooking on an induction hob. We boil the kettle on the induction hob. We use the immersion heater for hot water and we make water with our 220v watermaker all through a 3000w low frequency inverter. We added 4x50w flesible panels on a canvas backing that are our roving panels for when anchored. They fold up in to the space of a single 50w panel when not in use. With this additional 200w of solar we are averaging 3.6kWh per day of solar harvest. More than enough to run all our loads electrically. Our propane consumption is now negligible. We only use the gas cooker at sea, when our portable hob is stowed. With the increasing number of people moving to lithium there are a few things to note. 24v boats are ideal for lithium. The load limiting factor is the BMS. They are rated in amps. If you are a 24v boat, you half the amp draw off your 24v battery. Two lithium batteries is the ideal number. This actually needs to match your load but 2 batteries is way better than 4 batteries. When you install multiple batteries in series, it can be difficult to balance the batteries with each other. This can result in one battery being dominant and taking most of the load. It can cause battery shut down of the highest or lowest charged battery in extreme cases. Parallel is less of a problem but balancing can still be an issue. I am currently building a second lithium battery of a smaller size. 105Ah. It will use the same JK BMS and it be wired in parallel to the existing 280Ah battery. This will give me resilience should one BMS fail. It will allow me to carry on whilst we replace a BMS, etc. The additional capacity will allow us to get through a few cloudy days without having to resort to the diesel generator. Don't under estimate how much rewiring you may need to do to accommodate lithium. There is no such thing as a drop in replacement battery. Stay clear of cheap lithium batteries. It is far better to build your own with cells from a known source and a good BMS than buy something in a sealed box that you know nothing about. The cost of building your own battery is about half the cost of a cheap drop in lithium battery. Building your own battery also allows you to install the battery in a ventilated battery box. If you sail in the tropics, heat is not your friend. Cooling drop in lithium batteries isnt possible. The BMS mosfets make considerable heat when charging and particularly discharging. This heat cannot escape a sealed box. By comparison, a diy battery can easily accommodate forced ventilation. Lithium and solar were made for each other. Maximise your solar install. Speak,to your insurance company. Mine were happy for me to install lithium Interesting comments on your system. Seems everyone's system ends up different. We ended up with 540 ahrs LFP and 800 watts of panels for 160 ahrs daily usage. Works very well here in the tropics of SE Asia. Good advice at the end, especially of using quality equipment; it does not have to be expensive. Enjoy your cruising.
Our average daily usage here in the Caribbean since I built the battery 4 months ago is 114Ah at 24v, so 228Ah at 12v equivalent.
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By Bill.Bowers - 28 Sep 2023
Hats off for this excellent thread mates!!!
Our 1996 J42 limped home from Newfoundland in 2022 with 4 terminal Gp27 100AH Lifeline AGMs..
So we have also taken on a year-long DIY LFP upgrade voyage in our side yard. Spent 9 months studying sources mentioned above and designing. We are going with a Victron Lynx Smart BMS Bus nannying 2 330Ah Victron Smart LFP batteries . Victron ATC and ATD smart relays. The 2 LFP's and their proper non-arc fuses fit under the nav seat where 3 AGMs lived. DC DC converter charges the Get Home Starter bank of 2 GP 27 new Gel batteries, Wakespeed 500 alternator regulator under DVCC control of the BMS. New Victron Inverter/shore charger. New Victron MPPT regulators. The key is an ElektroMaax 250A remote rectified GenMaax alternator. The rectifier diodes are in a fan cooled heat sinked aluminum fin case mounted in the oilskin hanging locker of the aft head It will have a separate T sensor for the Cerbo GX to monitor, The small frame rotor on our 47 HP turbo Yanmar will be downrated to deliver180A steady state output without needing thermal cutback.
We have labeled latched out means of cross connecting the LA bank to charging and loads, and reenabling the old Balmar MC616 regulator if the Victron BMS disconnects.
Cheers
Bill Bowers
SV ConverJence
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By SoggyPaws - 5 Dec 2023
+xHats off for this excellent thread mates!!! Our 1996 J42 limped home from Newfoundland in 2022 with 4 terminal Gp27 100AH Lifeline AGMs.. So we have also taken on a year-long DIY LFP upgrade voyage in our side yard. Spent 9 months studying sources mentioned above and designing. We are going with a Victron Lynx Smart BMS Bus nannying 2 330Ah Victron Smart LFP batteries . Victron ATC and ATD smart relays. The 2 LFP's and their proper non-arc fuses fit under the nav seat where 3 AGMs lived. DC DC converter charges the Get Home Starter bank of 2 GP 27 new Gel batteries, Wakespeed 500 alternator regulator under DVCC control of the BMS. New Victron Inverter/shore charger. New Victron MPPT regulators. The key is an ElektroMaax 250A remote rectified GenMaax alternator. The rectifier diodes are in a fan cooled heat sinked aluminum fin case mounted in the oilskin hanging locker of the aft head It will have a separate T sensor for the Cerbo GX to monitor, The small frame rotor on our 47 HP turbo Yanmar will be downrated to deliver180A steady state output without needing thermal cutback. We have labeled latched out means of cross connecting the LA bank to charging and loads, and reenabling the old Balmar MC616 regulator if the Victron BMS disconnects. Cheers Bill Bowers SV ConverJence
Hi Bill. Good idea to switch to LFP and take your time with the research. Lots of Victron equipment in your build. Good stuff! Big alternator too. I didn't see any mention of solar, but maybe there's no sun up that far north. We survive on solar down here in the tropics. Let us know how it works out for you.
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By SoggyPaws - 5 Dec 2023
+xInteresting reading all the comments on lithium. I built my own 280Ah 24v ( equivalent to 560Ah at 12v) battery using CATL cells purchased in the USA. I had them shipped to Antigua. I used a JK 200A BMS with 2A active balance. The convertion to lithium has been a game changer for us. The 720w of solar we have used to harvest circa 2kWh per day when connected to our lead domestic bank. That same solar now harvests over 3kWh per day. The simple fact with lithium is that you dont need to get the battery full every day to maximise its life like you do with lead. Infact, keeping the battery below 90% full, will lengthen the life of lithium. As a result, we can use more battery capacity and keep the lithium battery on bulk charge, rarely floating the battery. We now do 95% of our cooking on an induction hob. We boil the kettle on the induction hob. We use the immersion heater for hot water and we make water with our 220v watermaker all through a 3000w low frequency inverter. We added 4x50w flesible panels on a canvas backing that are our roving panels for when anchored. They fold up in to the space of a single 50w panel when not in use. With this additional 200w of solar we are averaging 3.6kWh per day of solar harvest. More than enough to run all our loads electrically. Our propane consumption is now negligible. We only use the gas cooker at sea, when our portable hob is stowed. With the increasing number of people moving to lithium there are a few things to note. 24v boats are ideal for lithium. The load limiting factor is the BMS. They are rated in amps. If you are a 24v boat, you half the amp draw off your 24v battery. Two lithium batteries is the ideal number. This actually needs to match your load but 2 batteries is way better than 4 batteries. When you install multiple batteries in series, it can be difficult to balance the batteries with each other. This can result in one battery being dominant and taking most of the load. It can cause battery shut down of the highest or lowest charged battery in extreme cases. Parallel is less of a problem but balancing can still be an issue. I am currently building a second lithium battery of a smaller size. 105Ah. It will use the same JK BMS and it be wired in parallel to the existing 280Ah battery. This will give me resilience should one BMS fail. It will allow me to carry on whilst we replace a BMS, etc. The additional capacity will allow us to get through a few cloudy days without having to resort to the diesel generator. Don't under estimate how much rewiring you may need to do to accommodate lithium. There is no such thing as a drop in replacement battery. Stay clear of cheap lithium batteries. It is far better to build your own with cells from a known source and a good BMS than buy something in a sealed box that you know nothing about. The cost of building your own battery is about half the cost of a cheap drop in lithium battery. Building your own battery also allows you to install the battery in a ventilated battery box. If you sail in the tropics, heat is not your friend. Cooling drop in lithium batteries isnt possible. The BMS mosfets make considerable heat when charging and particularly discharging. This heat cannot escape a sealed box. By comparison, a diy battery can easily accommodate forced ventilation. Lithium and solar were made for each other. Maximise your solar install. Speak,to your insurance company. Mine were happy for me to install lithium
Tim,
Thanks for the description of your LFP install. It seems everyone does it differently. A couple of things to note.
Not all BMSs are internal Mosfet relay rated in amps. A number are external relay BMSs with few of the internal Mosfet BMS disadvantages you mention. We used a very well regarded ElectroDacus SBMS0 external relay BMS that does require more wiring, including separate relays for the various charging devices and loads that the BMS can control. These are commonly available up to about 500 amps each. Using an external relay BMS greatly expands the amps a BMS can control and without any internal heat issues.
One battery can reasonably be used for most installs requiring only one BMS instead of two or more batteries, each requiring a separate BMS and having the battery balancing problems you mention. If you are concerned about a rare cell failure just carry a spare. We do.
Insurance coverage is a big deal and may get more difficult in the future. Read your insurance policy for its current requirements, but be aware that they may change in the future. They are all different right now. However, the future may require compliance with recently developed ABYC or ISO standards so understanding those is important before starting an install.
We live on solar in the tropics, almost never having to resort to our alts or portable generator for charging. We designed our system for at least 3 days holdover with no charging. It doesn't get much better than silent auto charging all day.
And finally using electric for cooking is safer, more convenient and produces far less heat than using LPG. LFP makes that possible.
Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws
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By Wild.Bird - 5 Dec 2023
+x+xInteresting reading all the comments on lithium. I built my own 280Ah 24v ( equivalent to 560Ah at 12v) battery using CATL cells purchased in the USA. I had them shipped to Antigua. I used a JK 200A BMS with 2A active balance. The convertion to lithium has been a game changer for us. The 720w of solar we have used to harvest circa 2kWh per day when connected to our lead domestic bank. That same solar now harvests over 3kWh per day. The simple fact with lithium is that you dont need to get the battery full every day to maximise its life like you do with lead. Infact, keeping the battery below 90% full, will lengthen the life of lithium. As a result, we can use more battery capacity and keep the lithium battery on bulk charge, rarely floating the battery. We now do 95% of our cooking on an induction hob. We boil the kettle on the induction hob. We use the immersion heater for hot water and we make water with our 220v watermaker all through a 3000w low frequency inverter. We added 4x50w flesible panels on a canvas backing that are our roving panels for when anchored. They fold up in to the space of a single 50w panel when not in use. With this additional 200w of solar we are averaging 3.6kWh per day of solar harvest. More than enough to run all our loads electrically. Our propane consumption is now negligible. We only use the gas cooker at sea, when our portable hob is stowed. With the increasing number of people moving to lithium there are a few things to note. 24v boats are ideal for lithium. The load limiting factor is the BMS. They are rated in amps. If you are a 24v boat, you half the amp draw off your 24v battery. Two lithium batteries is the ideal number. This actually needs to match your load but 2 batteries is way better than 4 batteries. When you install multiple batteries in series, it can be difficult to balance the batteries with each other. This can result in one battery being dominant and taking most of the load. It can cause battery shut down of the highest or lowest charged battery in extreme cases. Parallel is less of a problem but balancing can still be an issue. I am currently building a second lithium battery of a smaller size. 105Ah. It will use the same JK BMS and it be wired in parallel to the existing 280Ah battery. This will give me resilience should one BMS fail. It will allow me to carry on whilst we replace a BMS, etc. The additional capacity will allow us to get through a few cloudy days without having to resort to the diesel generator. Don't under estimate how much rewiring you may need to do to accommodate lithium. There is no such thing as a drop in replacement battery. Stay clear of cheap lithium batteries. It is far better to build your own with cells from a known source and a good BMS than buy something in a sealed box that you know nothing about. The cost of building your own battery is about half the cost of a cheap drop in lithium battery. Building your own battery also allows you to install the battery in a ventilated battery box. If you sail in the tropics, heat is not your friend. Cooling drop in lithium batteries isnt possible. The BMS mosfets make considerable heat when charging and particularly discharging. This heat cannot escape a sealed box. By comparison, a diy battery can easily accommodate forced ventilation. Lithium and solar were made for each other. Maximise your solar install. Speak,to your insurance company. Mine were happy for me to install lithium Tim, Thanks for the description of your LFP install. It seems everyone does it differently. A couple of things to note. Not all BMSs are internal Mosfet relay rated in amps. A number are external relay BMSs with few of the internal Mosfet BMS disadvantages you mention. We used a very well regarded ElectroDacus SBMS0 external relay BMS that does require more wiring, including separate relays for the various charging devices and loads that the BMS can control. These are commonly available up to about 500 amps each. Using an external relay BMS greatly expands the amps a BMS can control and without any internal heat issues. One battery can reasonably be used for most installs requiring only one BMS instead of two or more batteries, each requiring a separate BMS and having the battery balancing problems you mention. If you are concerned about a rare cell failure just carry a spare. We do. Insurance coverage is a big deal and may get more difficult in the future. Read your insurance policy for its current requirements, but be aware that they may change in the future. They are all different right now. However, the future may require compliance with recently developed ABYC or ISO standards so understanding those is important before starting an install. We live on solar in the tropics, almost never having to resort to our alts or portable generator for charging. We designed our system for at least 3 days holdover with no charging. It doesn't get much better than silent auto charging all day. And finally using electric for cooking is safer, more convenient and produces far less heat than using LPG. LFP makes that possible. Dave McCampbell SV Soggy Paws
Yes, well aware of relay based BMS. For us there was no need to go that route with the added complexity. On a 24v boat the FET based BMS is hardly stressed as our amps are so low. Now we have two batteries in parallel with their own BMS we have redundancy of two independent systems. We run the batteries in parallel but either battery can easily run the boat. We never see total loads above 100A but each battery has a 200A BMS with 2A active balancer.
My install is ABYC compliant and my insurance company are happy with lithium.
95% of our cooking is on our induction hob.
We rarely run the diesel genset now. I occasionally do it just to keep it moving but we have so much power that we just run off solar and a wind turbine.
Tim
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