By Annely.Robinson - 16 Apr 2024
We had a new standing rigging installed on our Moody 44 in July 2021 in preparation for some long distance cruising. We spent the following year in Port Solent getting her ready and finally cast off the lines in June 2022. We completed the Atlantic circuit and returned 15 months later, having completed 15,000 nautical miles.
Our mast track had snapped during the crossing on the way back and we decided to get a local rigging company to replace it. They also surveyed the rigging. We fully expected there to be a few minor advisories, but what we didn’t anticipate was a damning report advising to replace all the rigging wire together with the terminals! The reason – corrosion and magnetism of the rigging wire.
Their argument seemed convincing – wires were showing signs of discolouration all over and a piece of magnet would easily stick to it, something that should not happen with stainless steel (or so we are told).
Rigging was removed in November and we got in touch with the ex-Moody rigger who had installed it back in 2021. He suggested contacting Seago, the supplier of the wire, which we did. A representative came out to inspect and reported that the discolouration was emanating from corroded terminals (not supplied by Seago). This was clearly not the case as corrosion is spread evenly all over the wire and terminals are not corroded. We took a short video demonstrating the discolouration and the extent of magnetism (magnet sticks and stays on) and sent it to the Technical Director at Seago. On the phone, he admitted that there was a problem and agreed to send a sample to their factory in South Korea (Kos) for testing. Admittedly, we didn’t have a lot of faith in the objectivity of this undertaking, but having nothing to lose, we agreed.
Just over 5 weeks later we got a response via our Moody rigger (Seago will no longer communicate with us, saying that our contract is with the Moody chap), which confirmed our fears. They quoted the statement received from their factory:
"As you know, stainless steel has better corrosion resistance compared to galvanized material, but it is not ‘100% corrosion free.’
As you have mentioned that the wire was in use for years + the marine environment, the corrosion should be a natural phenomenon after a period of time.
Depending on the environment and treatment, the time of corrosion would greatly differ”.
This appears to be someone's visual observation and not a test result. There is no technical data.
It claims that the wire was in use for years. Our rigging was installed in July 2021 and the boat was subsequently in a locked marina for a year before setting sail in June 2022. We returned in August 2023 after 14 months of sailing.
To us, this does not constitute as "being in use for years".
There are no official guidelines specifying how often standing rigging needs replacing. Commonly accepted industry standard appears to be 10-12 years and for insurance purposes every 10 years. There doesn’t seem to be any stipulation as to the milage. I accept that we have done a lot of miles in one year, however, many boats do much more over a 10-12 year period and in much tougher conditions. All those sailors setting off to circumnavigate, are they supposed to change their rigging several times during the voyage in order to stay safe? This does not seem reasonable.
Seago then went on saying:
"The inference of the above statement I would take is that Kos are of the opinion the wire is in a condition they would expect given the age, the environment and use.
The factory will never give an opinion as to the structural integrity of the rigging based solely on a sample of cut wire."
Conveniently, they are not prepared to comment on the structural integrity or safety, based on a sample, but neither are they offering to inspect the rigging properly.
We feel that we have come up against a brick wall. Who would give us independent advice on how to deal with this? There is no regulatory body to approach for help. Everyone involved has vested interests and getting additional surveys would add to the cost.
We have, very reluctantly, made a decision to pay for the replacement rigging as we would otherwise miss out on this sailing season without a guarantee of a fair conclusion. The most ironic thing is that (allegedly) most rigging companies in the UK (including ours) source their wire from the same factory in Korea. We feel that one of the parties may not be entirely honest with us (either the rigging company is exaggerating the problem or Seago/Kos are playing it down), however, both will now benefit from this situation.
According to the UK consumer law, giving consideration to the value of the goods, the life expectancy of a product such as this should be at least 6 years. If it fails during that period, then it is our legal right to seek for compensation. However, unless the survey declares the rigging “not fit for purpose”, it could be interpreted merely as an opinion and not a proof that it is, indeed, faulty.
Even if we did get a second, hopefully independent opinion, would they testify that the rigging wire is not fit for purpose, given that they all use the same supplier and presumably wouldn’t want to tarnish their relationship over our case?
We would very much welcome any advice or suggestions from members. It would also be interesting to hear if anyone has faced a similar predicament with their rigging.
Thanks in advance.
Paul & Annely
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By Dick - 16 Apr 2024
+xWe had a new standing rigging installed on our Moody 44 in July 2021 in preparation for some long distance cruising. We spent the following year in Port Solent getting her ready and finally cast off the lines in June 2022. We completed the Atlantic circuit and returned 15 months later, having completed 15,000 nautical miles. Our mast track had snapped during the crossing on the way back and we decided to get a local rigging company to replace it. They also surveyed the rigging. We fully expected there to be a few minor advisories, but what we didn’t anticipate was a damning report advising to replace all the rigging wire together with the terminals! The reason – corrosion and magnetism of the rigging wire. Their argument seemed convincing – wires were showing signs of discolouration all over and a piece of magnet would easily stick to it, something that should not happen with stainless steel (or so we are told). Rigging was removed in November and we got in touch with the ex-Moody rigger who had installed it back in 2021. He suggested contacting Seago, the supplier of the wire, which we did. A representative came out to inspect and reported that the discolouration was emanating from corroded terminals (not supplied by Seago). This was clearly not the case as corrosion is spread evenly all over the wire and terminals are not corroded. We took a short video demonstrating the discolouration and the extent of magnetism (magnet sticks and stays on) and sent it to the Technical Director at Seago. On the phone, he admitted that there was a problem and agreed to send a sample to their factory in South Korea (Kos) for testing. Admittedly, we didn’t have a lot of faith in the objectivity of this undertaking, but having nothing to lose, we agreed. Just over 5 weeks later we got a response via our Moody rigger (Seago will no longer communicate with us, saying that our contract is with the Moody chap), which confirmed our fears. They quoted the statement received from their factory: "As you know, stainless steel has better corrosion resistance compared to galvanized material, but it is not ‘100% corrosion free.’ As you have mentioned that the wire was in use for years + the marine environment, the corrosion should be a natural phenomenon after a period of time. Depending on the environment and treatment, the time of corrosion would greatly differ”. This appears to be someone's visual observation and not a test result. There is no technical data. It claims that the wire was in use for years. Our rigging was installed in July 2021 and the boat was subsequently in a locked marina for a year before setting sail in June 2022. We returned in August 2023 after 14 months of sailing. To us, this does not constitute as "being in use for years". There are no official guidelines specifying how often standing rigging needs replacing. Commonly accepted industry standard appears to be 10-12 years and for insurance purposes every 10 years. There doesn’t seem to be any stipulation as to the milage. I accept that we have done a lot of miles in one year, however, many boats do much more over a 10-12 year period and in much tougher conditions. All those sailors setting off to circumnavigate, are they supposed to change their rigging several times during the voyage in order to stay safe? This does not seem reasonable. Seago then went on saying: "The inference of the above statement I would take is that Kos are of the opinion the wire is in a condition they would expect given the age, the environment and use. The factory will never give an opinion as to the structural integrity of the rigging based solely on a sample of cut wire." Conveniently, they are not prepared to comment on the structural integrity or safety, based on a sample, but neither are they offering to inspect the rigging properly. We feel that we have come up against a brick wall. Who would give us independent advice on how to deal with this? There is no regulatory body to approach for help. Everyone involved has vested interests and getting additional surveys would add to the cost. We have, very reluctantly, made a decision to pay for the replacement rigging as we would otherwise miss out on this sailing season without a guarantee of a fair conclusion. The most ironic thing is that (allegedly) most rigging companies in the UK (including ours) source their wire from the same factory in Korea. We feel that one of the parties may not be entirely honest with us (either the rigging company is exaggerating the problem or Seago/Kos are playing it down), however, both will now benefit from this situation. According to the UK consumer law, giving consideration to the value of the goods, the life expectancy of a product such as this should be at least 6 years. If it fails during that period, then it is our legal right to seek for compensation. However, unless the survey declares the rigging “not fit for purpose”, it could be interpreted merely as an opinion and not a proof that it is, indeed, faulty. Even if we did get a second, hopefully independent opinion, would they testify that the rigging wire is not fit for purpose, given that they all use the same supplier and presumably wouldn’t want to tarnish their relationship over our case? We would very much welcome any advice or suggestions from members. It would also be interesting to hear if anyone has faced a similar predicament with their rigging. Thanks in advance. Paul & Annely
Hi Annely & Paul,
I am very sorry for your troubles: They are lousy!
And, it is entirely likely that you received some bad wire. Let everyone reading this be advised that it is best to check the province of wire that goes on your boat. And, perhaps, the advisability of dealing with independent contractors. Big outfits have the clout to get discounts on bulk purchases that independents do not. And they are very protective of their reputation so they usually buy quality.
Now the above may not apply, but I thought I would mention…
And neither that amount of sailing nor the duration it was on your boat should contribute in the slightest to the rigging deterioration you described.
One item you mentioned caught my attention: your mast track failed. Seemingly a separate issue from the rigging. I would urge you to consider that you might have some stray current corrosion: perhaps through a bonding system or perhaps through a lightening protection system: either could electrically connect the rigging and the mast track. And both systems suffer, on most people’s boats, from a lack of oversight and maintenance (out of sight; out of mind). A surveyor with that in mind might be money well spent. I would hate you to re-rig only to have things go bad again.
Actually, a good certified and experienced marine electrician might be a better diagnostician: I have had misgivings about the majority of surveyors that have crossed my path.
Let us know how things unfold.
Good luck with this, My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By simoncurrin - 17 Apr 2024
Paul,
A shocking story but not as shocking as another occ boat whose shrouds stranded mid-Pacific just 6 months after they were replaced with rigging sourced in the USA. I wonder if their metal came from the same batch as your’s
Simon
+xWe had a new standing rigging installed on our Moody 44 in July 2021 in preparation for some long distance cruising. We spent the following year in Port Solent getting her ready and finally cast off the lines in June 2022. We completed the Atlantic circuit and returned 15 months later, having completed 15,000 nautical miles. Our mast track had snapped during the crossing on the way back and we decided to get a local rigging company to replace it. They also surveyed the rigging. We fully expected there to be a few minor advisories, but what we didn’t anticipate was a damning report advising to replace all the rigging wire together with the terminals! The reason – corrosion and magnetism of the rigging wire. Their argument seemed convincing – wires were showing signs of discolouration all over and a piece of magnet would easily stick to it, something that should not happen with stainless steel (or so we are told). Rigging was removed in November and we got in touch with the ex-Moody rigger who had installed it back in 2021. He suggested contacting Seago, the supplier of the wire, which we did. A representative came out to inspect and reported that the discolouration was emanating from corroded terminals (not supplied by Seago). This was clearly not the case as corrosion is spread evenly all over the wire and terminals are not corroded. We took a short video demonstrating the discolouration and the extent of magnetism (magnet sticks and stays on) and sent it to the Technical Director at Seago. On the phone, he admitted that there was a problem and agreed to send a sample to their factory in South Korea (Kos) for testing. Admittedly, we didn’t have a lot of faith in the objectivity of this undertaking, but having nothing to lose, we agreed. Just over 5 weeks later we got a response via our Moody rigger (Seago will no longer communicate with us, saying that our contract is with the Moody chap), which confirmed our fears. They quoted the statement received from their factory: "As you know, stainless steel has better corrosion resistance compared to galvanized material, but it is not ‘100% corrosion free.’ As you have mentioned that the wire was in use for years + the marine environment, the corrosion should be a natural phenomenon after a period of time. Depending on the environment and treatment, the time of corrosion would greatly differ”. This appears to be someone's visual observation and not a test result. There is no technical data. It claims that the wire was in use for years. Our rigging was installed in July 2021 and the boat was subsequently in a locked marina for a year before setting sail in June 2022. We returned in August 2023 after 14 months of sailing. To us, this does not constitute as "being in use for years". There are no official guidelines specifying how often standing rigging needs replacing. Commonly accepted industry standard appears to be 10-12 years and for insurance purposes every 10 years. There doesn’t seem to be any stipulation as to the milage. I accept that we have done a lot of miles in one year, however, many boats do much more over a 10-12 year period and in much tougher conditions. All those sailors setting off to circumnavigate, are they supposed to change their rigging several times during the voyage in order to stay safe? This does not seem reasonable. Seago then went on saying: "The inference of the above statement I would take is that Kos are of the opinion the wire is in a condition they would expect given the age, the environment and use. The factory will never give an opinion as to the structural integrity of the rigging based solely on a sample of cut wire." Conveniently, they are not prepared to comment on the structural integrity or safety, based on a sample, but neither are they offering to inspect the rigging properly. We feel that we have come up against a brick wall. Who would give us independent advice on how to deal with this? There is no regulatory body to approach for help. Everyone involved has vested interests and getting additional surveys would add to the cost. We have, very reluctantly, made a decision to pay for the replacement rigging as we would otherwise miss out on this sailing season without a guarantee of a fair conclusion. The most ironic thing is that (allegedly) most rigging companies in the UK (including ours) source their wire from the same factory in Korea. We feel that one of the parties may not be entirely honest with us (either the rigging company is exaggerating the problem or Seago/Kos are playing it down), however, both will now benefit from this situation. According to the UK consumer law, giving consideration to the value of the goods, the life expectancy of a product such as this should be at least 6 years. If it fails during that period, then it is our legal right to seek for compensation. However, unless the survey declares the rigging “not fit for purpose”, it could be interpreted merely as an opinion and not a proof that it is, indeed, faulty. Even if we did get a second, hopefully independent opinion, would they testify that the rigging wire is not fit for purpose, given that they all use the same supplier and presumably wouldn’t want to tarnish their relationship over our case? We would very much welcome any advice or suggestions from members. It would also be interesting to hear if anyone has faced a similar predicament with their rigging. Thanks in advance. Paul & Annely
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By Annely.Robinson - 18 Apr 2024
+x+xWe had a new standing rigging installed on our Moody 44 in July 2021 in preparation for some long distance cruising. We spent the following year in Port Solent getting her ready and finally cast off the lines in June 2022. We completed the Atlantic circuit and returned 15 months later, having completed 15,000 nautical miles. Our mast track had snapped during the crossing on the way back and we decided to get a local rigging company to replace it. They also surveyed the rigging. We fully expected there to be a few minor advisories, but what we didn’t anticipate was a damning report advising to replace all the rigging wire together with the terminals! The reason – corrosion and magnetism of the rigging wire. Their argument seemed convincing – wires were showing signs of discolouration all over and a piece of magnet would easily stick to it, something that should not happen with stainless steel (or so we are told). Rigging was removed in November and we got in touch with the ex-Moody rigger who had installed it back in 2021. He suggested contacting Seago, the supplier of the wire, which we did. A representative came out to inspect and reported that the discolouration was emanating from corroded terminals (not supplied by Seago). This was clearly not the case as corrosion is spread evenly all over the wire and terminals are not corroded. We took a short video demonstrating the discolouration and the extent of magnetism (magnet sticks and stays on) and sent it to the Technical Director at Seago. On the phone, he admitted that there was a problem and agreed to send a sample to their factory in South Korea (Kos) for testing. Admittedly, we didn’t have a lot of faith in the objectivity of this undertaking, but having nothing to lose, we agreed. Just over 5 weeks later we got a response via our Moody rigger (Seago will no longer communicate with us, saying that our contract is with the Moody chap), which confirmed our fears. They quoted the statement received from their factory: "As you know, stainless steel has better corrosion resistance compared to galvanized material, but it is not ‘100% corrosion free.’ As you have mentioned that the wire was in use for years + the marine environment, the corrosion should be a natural phenomenon after a period of time. Depending on the environment and treatment, the time of corrosion would greatly differ”. This appears to be someone's visual observation and not a test result. There is no technical data. It claims that the wire was in use for years. Our rigging was installed in July 2021 and the boat was subsequently in a locked marina for a year before setting sail in June 2022. We returned in August 2023 after 14 months of sailing. To us, this does not constitute as "being in use for years". There are no official guidelines specifying how often standing rigging needs replacing. Commonly accepted industry standard appears to be 10-12 years and for insurance purposes every 10 years. There doesn’t seem to be any stipulation as to the milage. I accept that we have done a lot of miles in one year, however, many boats do much more over a 10-12 year period and in much tougher conditions. All those sailors setting off to circumnavigate, are they supposed to change their rigging several times during the voyage in order to stay safe? This does not seem reasonable. Seago then went on saying: "The inference of the above statement I would take is that Kos are of the opinion the wire is in a condition they would expect given the age, the environment and use. The factory will never give an opinion as to the structural integrity of the rigging based solely on a sample of cut wire." Conveniently, they are not prepared to comment on the structural integrity or safety, based on a sample, but neither are they offering to inspect the rigging properly. We feel that we have come up against a brick wall. Who would give us independent advice on how to deal with this? There is no regulatory body to approach for help. Everyone involved has vested interests and getting additional surveys would add to the cost. We have, very reluctantly, made a decision to pay for the replacement rigging as we would otherwise miss out on this sailing season without a guarantee of a fair conclusion. The most ironic thing is that (allegedly) most rigging companies in the UK (including ours) source their wire from the same factory in Korea. We feel that one of the parties may not be entirely honest with us (either the rigging company is exaggerating the problem or Seago/Kos are playing it down), however, both will now benefit from this situation. According to the UK consumer law, giving consideration to the value of the goods, the life expectancy of a product such as this should be at least 6 years. If it fails during that period, then it is our legal right to seek for compensation. However, unless the survey declares the rigging “not fit for purpose”, it could be interpreted merely as an opinion and not a proof that it is, indeed, faulty. Even if we did get a second, hopefully independent opinion, would they testify that the rigging wire is not fit for purpose, given that they all use the same supplier and presumably wouldn’t want to tarnish their relationship over our case? We would very much welcome any advice or suggestions from members. It would also be interesting to hear if anyone has faced a similar predicament with their rigging. Thanks in advance. Paul & Annely Hi Annely & Paul, I am very sorry for your troubles: They are lousy! And, it is entirely likely that you received some bad wire. Let everyone reading this be advised that it is best to check the province of wire that goes on your boat. And, perhaps, the advisability of dealing with independent contractors. Big outfits have the clout to get discounts on bulk purchases that independents do not. And they are very protective of their reputation so they usually buy quality. Now the above may not apply, but I thought I would mention… And neither that amount of sailing nor the duration it was on your boat should contribute in the slightest to the rigging deterioration you described. One item you mentioned caught my attention: your mast track failed. Seemingly a separate issue from the rigging. I would urge you to consider that you might have some stray current corrosion: perhaps through a bonding system or perhaps through a lightening protection system: either could electrically connect the rigging and the mast track. And both systems suffer, on most people’s boats, from a lack of oversight and maintenance (out of sight; out of mind). A surveyor with that in mind might be money well spent. I would hate you to re-rig only to have things go bad again. Actually, a good certified and experienced marine electrician might be a better diagnostician: I have had misgivings about the majority of surveyors that have crossed my path. Let us know how things unfold. Good luck with this, My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Dick
thanks for your reply and a useful suggestion. I'm merely the first mate and have passed your comments on to my skipper, who happens to be an electrician by trade. He is telling me that he has done those checks, so we can eliminate that possibility. Thank you for your suggestion though, other readers may find it useful.
We have since established that there are many others experiencing the same - quality of the wire has deteriorated in recent years and we should be very careful about where it is sourced from. We don't just have the redress (which, is probably unlikely) to take care of, but also need to make sure that the replacement is of decent quality. Our rigger, however, is not very forthcoming with the details of that... Endless fun!
We'll update you once we have made some progress.
Many thanks and best wishes
Annely
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By Annely.Robinson - 18 Apr 2024
+xPaul, A shocking story but not as shocking as another occ boat whose shrouds stranded mid-Pacific just 6 months after they were replaced with rigging sourced in the USA. I wonder if their metal came from the same batch as your’s Simon Hi Simon
that's shocking, indeed. Is there an article on this site about it? We'd be interested in knowing more. There seems to be a lot of substandard rigging wire on the market that starts corroding 6-12 months after it's been installed etc.
Best wishes
P&A
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By simoncurrin - 18 Apr 2024
No they haven’t written their experience up yet and so I can’t really share too much detail. The yard that fitted it said that they would need to inspect themselves which is obviously impractical (5,000 miles up wind). They have decided to replace using a local rigger ( French Polynesia) at their own expense.
Simon
+x+xPaul, A shocking story but not as shocking as another occ boat whose shrouds stranded mid-Pacific just 6 months after they were replaced with rigging sourced in the USA. I wonder if their metal came from the same batch as your’s Simon Hi Simon that's shocking, indeed. Is there an article on this site about it? We'd be interested in knowing more. There seems to be a lot of substandard rigging wire on the market that starts corroding 6-12 months after it's been installed etc. Best wishes P&A
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By Dick - 19 Apr 2024
+xNo they haven’t written their experience up yet and so I can’t really share too much detail. The yard that fitted it said that they would need to inspect themselves which is obviously impractical (5,000 miles up wind). They have decided to replace using a local rigger ( French Polynesia) at their own expense. Simon +x+xPaul, A shocking story but not as shocking as another occ boat whose shrouds stranded mid-Pacific just 6 months after they were replaced with rigging sourced in the USA. I wonder if their metal came from the same batch as your’s Simon Hi Simon that's shocking, indeed. Is there an article on this site about it? We'd be interested in knowing more. There seems to be a lot of substandard rigging wire on the market that starts corroding 6-12 months after it's been installed etc. Best wishes P&A Hi Annely and all,
I will use your challenges to flag a concern of mine that has been there for decades, but seems to be getting worse.
That is the number of boat owners dis-appointed in the work they receive by the marine industry (My experience and stories are mostly from the US marine industry: my years in the UK and Europe gave evidence that similar disappointments occur with frequency there also). Shoddy materials may be the case here, but there are also estimates exceeded geometrically, frustrating delays, unrealistic expectations promoted to get the job, poor communication from the boat yard, un-answered emails and phone calls, etc.
It very much pays for the skipper to have a “very involved” approach to work being done on his/her boat. Someone who is respectfully looking-over-shoulders, both literally and figuratively, and is asking lots of questions in the lead up to the work, is more likely to get the job that is anticipated and wished for.
For example, I do not think it going to far to have a magnet with you when buying stainless steel products (many a bin of SS bolts and screws have been contaminated with ferrous products). And independent contractors can often do brilliant work at reasonable prices, but, my experience, is that a certain percentage of these independent workers are flakes or worse and that they are independent because they do not cut the mustard in larger organizations.
I also think it best, for all of us, in recreational boating, if you make as big a fuss, and as public a fuss, as you can endure. You may not (and are likely not going to) get the satisfaction you deserve, but it is likely to put those who provide services for us with boats on notice: and that would be a good thing.
I believe the marine industry should be wary of its treatment of recreational boaters: many are committed to their boats, but many might take their money and, as said in the USA, “Buy a cottage in the Berkshires”.
Let us know how this all unfolds.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By simoncurrin - 19 Apr 2024
Dick,
You describe a blight which exists on both sides of the Atlantic. Scandalously shoddy standards seem to be ‘normal’ in the marine leisure industry.
Simon
+x+xNo they haven’t written their experience up yet and so I can’t really share too much detail. The yard that fitted it said that they would need to inspect themselves which is obviously impractical (5,000 miles up wind). They have decided to replace using a local rigger ( French Polynesia) at their own expense. Simon +x+xPaul, A shocking story but not as shocking as another occ boat whose shrouds stranded mid-Pacific just 6 months after they were replaced with rigging sourced in the USA. I wonder if their metal came from the same batch as your’s Simon Hi Simon that's shocking, indeed. Is there an article on this site about it? We'd be interested in knowing more. There seems to be a lot of substandard rigging wire on the market that starts corroding 6-12 months after it's been installed etc. Best wishes P&A Hi Annely and all, I will use your challenges to flag a concern of mine that has been there for decades, but seems to be getting worse. That is the number of boat owners dis-appointed in the work they receive by the marine industry (My experience and stories are mostly from the US marine industry: my years in the UK and Europe gave evidence that similar disappointments occur with frequency there also). Shoddy materials may be the case here, but there are also estimates exceeded geometrically, frustrating delays, unrealistic expectations promoted to get the job, poor communication from the boat yard, un-answered emails and phone calls, etc. It very much pays for the skipper to have a “very involved” approach to work being done on his/her boat. Someone who is respectfully looking-over-shoulders, both literally and figuratively, and is asking lots of questions in the lead up to the work, is more likely to get the job that is anticipated and wished for. For example, I do not think it going to far to have a magnet with you when buying stainless steel products (many a bin of SS bolts and screws have been contaminated with ferrous products). And independent contractors can often do brilliant work at reasonable prices, but, my experience, is that a certain percentage of these independent workers are flakes or worse and that they are independent because they do not cut the mustard in larger organizations. I also think it best, for all of us, in recreational boating, if you make as big a fuss, and as public a fuss, as you can endure. You may not (and are likely not going to) get the satisfaction you deserve, but it is likely to put those who provide services for us with boats on notice: and that would be a good thing. I believe the marine industry should be wary of its treatment of recreational boaters: many are committed to their boats, but many might take their money and, as said in the USA, “Buy a cottage in the Berkshires”. Let us know how this all unfolds. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By Dick - 21 Apr 2024
+xDick, You describe a blight which exists on both sides of the Atlantic. Scandalously shoddy standards seem to be ‘normal’ in the marine leisure industry. Simon +x+xNo they haven’t written their experience up yet and so I can’t really share too much detail. The yard that fitted it said that they would need to inspect themselves which is obviously impractical (5,000 miles up wind). They have decided to replace using a local rigger ( French Polynesia) at their own expense. Simon +x+xPaul, A shocking story but not as shocking as another occ boat whose shrouds stranded mid-Pacific just 6 months after they were replaced with rigging sourced in the USA. I wonder if their metal came from the same batch as your’s Simon Hi Simon that's shocking, indeed. Is there an article on this site about it? We'd be interested in knowing more. There seems to be a lot of substandard rigging wire on the market that starts corroding 6-12 months after it's been installed etc. Best wishes P&A Hi Annely and all, I will use your challenges to flag a concern of mine that has been there for decades, but seems to be getting worse. That is the number of boat owners dis-appointed in the work they receive by the marine industry (My experience and stories are mostly from the US marine industry: my years in the UK and Europe gave evidence that similar disappointments occur with frequency there also). Shoddy materials may be the case here, but there are also estimates exceeded geometrically, frustrating delays, unrealistic expectations promoted to get the job, poor communication from the boat yard, un-answered emails and phone calls, etc. It very much pays for the skipper to have a “very involved” approach to work being done on his/her boat. Someone who is respectfully looking-over-shoulders, both literally and figuratively, and is asking lots of questions in the lead up to the work, is more likely to get the job that is anticipated and wished for. For example, I do not think it going to far to have a magnet with you when buying stainless steel products (many a bin of SS bolts and screws have been contaminated with ferrous products). And independent contractors can often do brilliant work at reasonable prices, but, my experience, is that a certain percentage of these independent workers are flakes or worse and that they are independent because they do not cut the mustard in larger organizations. I also think it best, for all of us, in recreational boating, if you make as big a fuss, and as public a fuss, as you can endure. You may not (and are likely not going to) get the satisfaction you deserve, but it is likely to put those who provide services for us with boats on notice: and that would be a good thing. I believe the marine industry should be wary of its treatment of recreational boaters: many are committed to their boats, but many might take their money and, as said in the USA, “Buy a cottage in the Berkshires”. Let us know how this all unfolds. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Simon,
We can speculate why the marine industry has such a well-deserved shoddy reputation. Can you imagine the automobile industry functioning so poorly? There would be an uproar and things would rapidly change.
Being in a different location pretty much all the time (as you are also), we are dealing with a new cast of characters in boatyards and marinas on a regular basis. I have developed over time a pattern of involvement with yards (and managers/workers) that has not always, but generally, gotten me (and Alchemy) pretty good service, generally on time, and at pretty close to the agreed upon price. But this entails a lot of work on my part staying on top of things. Perhaps I will write up my thoughts.
Shimshal and Alchemy have the added challenge of being “transient” vessels where the yard knows we will be moving on and that keeping the local boat owners happy is their bread and butter.
My best, Dick
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By simoncurrin - 21 Apr 2024
Yes, our worst experience was in Nova Scotiia during lockdown when no form of supervision was possible. We have had to redo nearly all the work they did and mend the damage.
Simon
id="7895" class="if-quote-wrapper" unselectable="on">+x+xDick, You describe a blight which exists on both sides of the Atlantic. Scandalously shoddy standards seem to be ‘normal’ in the marine leisure industry. Simon +x+xNo they haven’t written their experience up yet and so I can’t really share too much detail. The yard that fitted it said that they would need to inspect themselves which is obviously impractical (5,000 miles up wind). They have decided to replace using a local rigger ( French Polynesia) at their own expense. Simon +x+xPaul, A shocking story but not as shocking as another occ boat whose shrouds stranded mid-Pacific just 6 months after they were replaced with rigging sourced in the USA. I wonder if their metal came from the same batch as your’s Simon Hi Simon that's shocking, indeed. Is there an article on this site about it? We'd be interested in knowing more. There seems to be a lot of substandard rigging wire on the market that starts corroding 6-12 months after it's been installed etc. Best wishes P&A Hi Annely and all, I will use your challenges to flag a concern of mine that has been there for decades, but seems to be getting worse. That is the number of boat owners dis-appointed in the work they receive by the marine industry (My experience and stories are mostly from the US marine industry: my years in the UK and Europe gave evidence that similar disappointments occur with frequency there also). Shoddy materials may be the case here, but there are also estimates exceeded geometrically, frustrating delays, unrealistic expectations promoted to get the job, poor communication from the boat yard, un-answered emails and phone calls, etc. It very much pays for the skipper to have a “very involved” approach to work being done on his/her boat. Someone who is respectfully looking-over-shoulders, both literally and figuratively, and is asking lots of questions in the lead up to the work, is more likely to get the job that is anticipated and wished for. For example, I do not think it going to far to have a magnet with you when buying stainless steel products (many a bin of SS bolts and screws have been contaminated with ferrous products). And independent contractors can often do brilliant work at reasonable prices, but, my experience, is that a certain percentage of these independent workers are flakes or worse and that they are independent because they do not cut the mustard in larger organizations. I also think it best, for all of us, in recreational boating, if you make as big a fuss, and as public a fuss, as you can endure. You may not (and are likely not going to) get the satisfaction you deserve, but it is likely to put those who provide services for us with boats on notice: and that would be a good thing. I believe the marine industry should be wary of its treatment of recreational boaters: many are committed to their boats, but many might take their money and, as said in the USA, “Buy a cottage in the Berkshires”. Let us know how this all unfolds. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy Hi Simon, We can speculate why the marine industry has such a well-deserved shoddy reputation. Can you imagine the automobile industry functioning so poorly? There would be an uproar and things would rapidly change. Being in a different location pretty much all the time (as you are also), we are dealing with a new cast of characters in boatyards and marinas on a regular basis. I have developed over time a pattern of involvement with yards (and managers/workers) that has not always, but generally, gotten me (and Alchemy) pretty good service, generally on time, and at pretty close to the agreed upon price. But this entails a lot of work on my part staying on top of things. Perhaps I will write up my thoughts. Shimshal and Alchemy have the added challenge of being “transient” vessels where the yard knows we will be moving on and that keeping the local boat owners happy is their bread and butter. My best, Dick
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By Annely.Robinson - 23 Apr 2024
Hello Dick, Simon
There is definitely an added challenge for transient vessels. We have also been on the receiving end of this, having been ripped off at an epic scale during the delivery trip from Italy to the UK in 2020 – most notably in the Balearic Islands. If you are unfortunate enough to get stuck there with a problem, they have got you and will “charge you like raging bulls”, as one of the OCC members said.😊 Result was the shoddiest work at the highest price, and everything had to be replaced at the later date.
The situation is marginally better here, on the Solent, but there's still a lot of discontent. The problem seems to be that the demand far exceeds supply and companies don’t have to try very hard to survive. Good companies are fully booked for months ahead and even those guys that are not, are elusive at best – they may come out to meet with you to discuss and take a look, then you never hear from them. If you do eventually get an agreement and hand over a deposit, you will never know when they turn up to do the job. You are often made to feel like an inconvenience, as if the company is doing you a favour (thank you, Sir, for taking my money 😊)
I’m not an expert, but it seems that the automotive industry is better regulated and it’s easier for a customer to seek redress (from my own experience anyway). In the marine industry there doesn’t appear to be any agreed standards, nor is there a regulatory body or organisation who would advise in case of a dispute. If we had the stamina and inclination to take the rigging company to court, the onus would be on us to prove that the product was unfit for purpose or faulty at the time of installation. Without clear industry standards to refer to and specialist knowledge in metallurgy, how would we ever stand a chance? We could get the wire tested to identify the grade of stainless steel used, however, this does not achieve anything unless there is a standard that stipulates that only 316 can be used. We have now found out that 302 and 304 grades are used as well. Given that we had not specified the grade of SS at the time of order and relied on our rigger to make the right choice (we were not presented with any options), then our options for redress are close to nil. There is a clear need for agreed standards and regulations to improve consumer protection. Perhaps organisations like RYA, OCC and CA could collectively promote and lead on that change?
Best wishes
Annely
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