+x

 

dsmith - 2/16/2020

I have an old Raymarine C120 plotter on Cape, which we use for passage making. I also have Open CPN on a laptop and i Sailor (a scaled down version of TRANSAS a commercial system) on a tablet. I use Open CPN for planning then copy the waypoints to the C120, a bit of a pain but the C120 is old kit, and can't be integrated. I have used the Raymarine software, but to be honest I found it hard work and haven't used for years now.

All the systems are pretty good, you just have to spend the time getting to know them. Getting the charts updated is a real pain and in some cases costly, but if you use iSailor, you are on an annual subscription and the charts are updated every 90 days, if you use their PC based system or the commercial system they are updated weekly; you can buy annual licences for the area you will be in or a 90 day licence for areas you are transiting through.

As with all ECDIS systems, you get what you pay for, and I'd look at the local fishermen use if you accurate and robust kit.

+x

 

Philip Heaton - 2/25/2020

We have a B&G Zeus2, well, two actually that are connected - one at the chart table and one under the sprayhood (best location for when the weather is inclement and can be seen easily by all the folks in the cockpit - don't understand why you need a chartplotter at the helm).  We do our plotting on the chartplotter - I thought the clue was in the name but then ....  We used to have C-Map charts on our Simrad but it died a couple of years ago and now use Navionics.

+x

 

dsmith - 2/25/2020

Having a plotter, or a repeater at the helm or under a spray hood (I'd class both as being at the helm, if the Helmsman can see it.) , is a great benefit to the Helmsman.

Not only can they see the course to steer, they have a live picture of what is actually happening. If they are getting off course by wind, tide or both, they can see it and adjust accordingly; rather than doing 30 min or hourly adjustments if you need to plot it on a paper chart. 

If you're lucky enough to have an intergrated RADAR, even better for getting into those cosy little anchorages or harbours at night or bad vis'.

I guess it's a case of what you're used to, and how competent your are with using it. I'm lucky to have done an ECDIS course and  I use ECDIS in work every day.

If it's set up correctly and your electronics, batteries, genset, etc are up to it, you don't need to carry paper charts except for emergencies. 

+x

 

Philip Heaton - 2/27/2020

Hi all,

Dick you have masterfully and eloquently expressed by views.  The helm can see our chartplotter which also displays radar, if actually steering the boat.  This is vital in fog - when we crawled into Cape Town harbour in thick fog (the port was closed to commercial traffic but we were given permission to enter) we had waypoints all the way to the visitors' berth at Royal Cape YC and it was essential that we had put in a route so detailed.  The radar of course was an added feature for security.
I fully acknowledge that creating a route directly on to the chart plotter can be a pain but I try to minimise just how many devices are involved in doing a job, as I am not sure every techie advance necessarily makes things easier or simpler.  At the risk of thread drift, to illustrate this, back in the mid-noughties when Minnie B was being built the latest music technology was the iPod.  We bought one of those turntables for digitising the music on our LPs and CDs and loaded it all on the iPod.  This has been our source of music on the boat since then. Recently we bought a shore base as we are now cruising 7-8 months rather than the 10-11 months previously.  So we wanted music in the apartment.  Simple eh?  Buy one of those super Bose speakers with an iPod docking facility.  Pop along to the Bose shop.  Nope, they have stopped making them but they do have a super Bose speaker at £300 that operates with Bluetooth. Being a bit slow, we ask for an explanation of how this would work - the answer was to turn on the PC which also holds the music, connect it to the smartphone, and then connect the phone to the speaker  ... we went on ebay and bought a used speaker with iPod docking facility for £50.

+x

 

Philip Heaton - 2/27/2020

+x

 

Philip Heaton - 2/27/2020

Hi all,

Dick you have masterfully and eloquently expressed by views.  The helm can see our chartplotter which also displays radar, if actually steering the boat.  This is vital in fog - when we crawled into Cape Town harbour in thick fog (the port was closed to commercial traffic but we were given permission to enter) we had waypoints all the way to the visitors' berth at Royal Cape YC and it was essential that we had put in a route so detailed.  The radar of course was an added feature for security.
I fully acknowledge that creating a route directly on to the chart plotter can be a pain but I try to minimise just how many devices are involved in doing a job, as I am not sure every techie advance necessarily makes things easier or simpler.  At the risk of thread drift, to illustrate this, back in the mid-noughties when Minnie B was being built the latest music technology was the iPod.  We bought one of those turntables for digitising the music on our LPs and CDs and loaded it all on the iPod.  This has been our source of music on the boat since then. Recently we bought a shore base as we are now cruising 7-8 months rather than the 10-11 months previously.  So we wanted music in the apartment.  Simple eh?  Buy one of those super Bose speakers with an iPod docking facility.  Pop along to the Bose shop.  Nope, they have stopped making them but they do have a super Bose speaker at £300 that operates with Bluetooth. Being a bit slow, we ask for an explanation of how this would work - the answer was to turn on the PC which also holds the music, connect it to the smartphone, and then connect the phone to the speaker  ... we went on ebay and bought a used speaker with iPod docking facility for £50.

Sorry I seem to have a written cold - 'by' should be 'my'

+x

 

Dick - 2/27/2020

+x

 

Philip Heaton - 2/27/2020

+x

 

Philip Heaton - 2/27/2020

Hi all,

Dick you have masterfully and eloquently expressed by views.  The helm can see our chartplotter which also displays radar, if actually steering the boat.  This is vital in fog - when we crawled into Cape Town harbour in thick fog (the port was closed to commercial traffic but we were given permission to enter) we had waypoints all the way to the visitors' berth at Royal Cape YC and it was essential that we had put in a route so detailed.  The radar of course was an added feature for security.
I fully acknowledge that creating a route directly on to the chart plotter can be a pain but I try to minimise just how many devices are involved in doing a job, as I am not sure every techie advance necessarily makes things easier or simpler.  At the risk of thread drift, to illustrate this, back in the mid-noughties when Minnie B was being built the latest music technology was the iPod.  We bought one of those turntables for digitising the music on our LPs and CDs and loaded it all on the iPod.  This has been our source of music on the boat since then. Recently we bought a shore base as we are now cruising 7-8 months rather than the 10-11 months previously.  So we wanted music in the apartment.  Simple eh?  Buy one of those super Bose speakers with an iPod docking facility.  Pop along to the Bose shop.  Nope, they have stopped making them but they do have a super Bose speaker at £300 that operates with Bluetooth. Being a bit slow, we ask for an explanation of how this would work - the answer was to turn on the PC which also holds the music, connect it to the smartphone, and then connect the phone to the speaker  ... we went on ebay and bought a used speaker with iPod docking facility for £50.

Sorry I seem to have a written cold - 'by' should be 'my'

Hi Phil,
I agree completely that every techie “advancement” should be met with skepticism. Many do not advance safety on a vessel and I find some of the hype more in service of lining the pockets of vendors than contributing to the operation of the boat. I remember a conversation with someone that started out saying that he decided against a few extra hundreds for the larger anchor and went on to wax eloquent about the integrated electronics just installed which had to set him back many thousands.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

+x

 

dsmith - 3/3/2020

+x

 

Dick - 2/27/2020

+x

 

Philip Heaton - 2/27/2020

+x

 

Philip Heaton - 2/27/2020

Hi all,

Dick you have masterfully and eloquently expressed by views.  The helm can see our chartplotter which also displays radar, if actually steering the boat.  This is vital in fog - when we crawled into Cape Town harbour in thick fog (the port was closed to commercial traffic but we were given permission to enter) we had waypoints all the way to the visitors' berth at Royal Cape YC and it was essential that we had put in a route so detailed.  The radar of course was an added feature for security.
I fully acknowledge that creating a route directly on to the chart plotter can be a pain but I try to minimise just how many devices are involved in doing a job, as I am not sure every techie advance necessarily makes things easier or simpler.  At the risk of thread drift, to illustrate this, back in the mid-noughties when Minnie B was being built the latest music technology was the iPod.  We bought one of those turntables for digitising the music on our LPs and CDs and loaded it all on the iPod.  This has been our source of music on the boat since then. Recently we bought a shore base as we are now cruising 7-8 months rather than the 10-11 months previously.  So we wanted music in the apartment.  Simple eh?  Buy one of those super Bose speakers with an iPod docking facility.  Pop along to the Bose shop.  Nope, they have stopped making them but they do have a super Bose speaker at £300 that operates with Bluetooth. Being a bit slow, we ask for an explanation of how this would work - the answer was to turn on the PC which also holds the music, connect it to the smartphone, and then connect the phone to the speaker  ... we went on ebay and bought a used speaker with iPod docking facility for £50.

Sorry I seem to have a written cold - 'by' should be 'my'

Hi Phil,
I agree completely that every techie “advancement” should be met with skepticism. Many do not advance safety on a vessel and I find some of the hype more in service of lining the pockets of vendors than contributing to the operation of the boat. I remember a conversation with someone that started out saying that he decided against a few extra hundreds for the larger anchor and went on to wax eloquent about the integrated electronics just installed which had to set him back many thousands.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

As someone who uses a chart plotter/integrated ECDIS system, commercially (as a ships Master) on a daily basis, I have to disagree completely with what you are saying. 
Used correctly even the cheapest standalone chart plotter with a GPS input, will give you better, live, information than transfering Lat/LON to a paper chart.
In a planning mode, you can set safe and shallow depths, and many other vessel specific parameters, so when you set routes up, it will automatically show dangers. Add in AIS and/or a RADAR overlay and you have a fantastic tool giving you plenty of reliable information. 
Get some training, if you can afford it, get yourself on an STCW Generic ECDIS course, it's certainly money well spent and you won't regret it.
The thing to remember about about ANY electrictronic navigation aid is simply 'Garbage in; garbage out.'
The USCG & MCA, encourage the switch to integrated ECDIS systems, they are used safely, by 1,000s of commercial vessels from 500t to 250,000t daily and without incident. 
Rather than make a glib statement, saying they do not enhance safety, and only make a profit for the manufacturer; I suggest you learn how to use ENCs and plotters correctly.

+x

 

Janice FENNYMORE-WHITE - 3/28/2020

We use a chart plotter on Destiny, or rather a PC based version running Time Zero Professional. It runs a screen at the helm and two at the chart table for planning and a radar watch. The helm can display radar, chart or either on overlay or a split screen. AIS targets are on both we can interrogate a target and track it at the touch of the screen. We run a full redundant system as well as isailor on a tablet that also shows all AIS targets.
Simply put we do not use paper charts and have not done so for 30,000 miles. Commercial ships and planes fly without paper charts, it is time the leisure market was trained to do likewise. We are not against the tradition of paper and dividers, as it teaches you the basic skills but the RYA are slow to train the correct way to use electronic charting. We have sailed 2 vessels that used integrated autopilot but neither made an automatic turn without human intervention which rightly you mentioned as unwise but routes made on paper or electronically are still only as good as the navigator that created them. 

+x

 

dsmith - 3/11/2020

Dick, I'm not intending to be name calling on the forum; but I felt I needed to react to "I agree completely that every techie “advancement” should be met with skepticism. Many do not advance safety on a vessel and I find some of the hype more in service of lining the pockets of vendors than contributing to the operation of the boat."

I was trying to say, that normally isn't the case, most software manufacturers know that if they make a mess of things, people could die; that's quite a responsibility.
I agree that traditional skills must be taught and used; as of course, you never know when it may be needed...

As I said I use ECDIS in various forms daily, and I have a variety of systems on the boat and back-up Android systems with me when at sea,  they are all very good, even if some are not exactly user friendly.

Lets just use the new technologies to our advantage, so we get the best out of cruising.

Have fun and keep on sailing

+x

 

Janice FENNYMORE-WHITE - 3/28/2020

We use a chart plotter on Destiny, or rather a PC based version running Time Zero Professional. It runs a screen at the helm and two at the chart table for planning and a radar watch. The helm can display radar, chart or either on overlay or a split screen. AIS targets are on both we can interrogate a target and track it at the touch of the screen. We run a full redundant system as well as isailor on a tablet that also shows all AIS targets.
Simply put we do not use paper charts and have not done so for 30,000 miles. Commercial ships and planes fly without paper charts, it is time the leisure market was trained to do likewise. We are not against the tradition of paper and dividers, as it teaches you the basic skills but the RYA are slow to train the correct way to use electronic charting. We have sailed 2 vessels that used integrated autopilot but neither made an automatic turn without human intervention which rightly you mentioned as unwise but routes made on paper or electronically are still only as good as the navigator that created them. 

+x

 

Dick - 3/29/2020

+x

 

Janice FENNYMORE-WHITE - 3/28/2020

We use a chart plotter on Destiny, or rather a PC based version running Time Zero Professional. It runs a screen at the helm and two at the chart table for planning and a radar watch. The helm can display radar, chart or either on overlay or a split screen. AIS targets are on both we can interrogate a target and track it at the touch of the screen. We run a full redundant system as well as isailor on a tablet that also shows all AIS targets.
Simply put we do not use paper charts and have not done so for 30,000 miles. Commercial ships and planes fly without paper charts, it is time the leisure market was trained to do likewise. We are not against the tradition of paper and dividers, as it teaches you the basic skills but the RYA are slow to train the correct way to use electronic charting. We have sailed 2 vessels that used integrated autopilot but neither made an automatic turn without human intervention which rightly you mentioned as unwise but routes made on paper or electronically are still only as good as the navigator that created them. 

   
Hi Janice,
Sounds like a very workable system with redundancy.
It is a nice safety feature to not have the interfaced autopilot make an adjustment to course without a crew OK’ing it. What do you consider the safety advantages of interfacing autopilot and plotter? And what are the “convenience” advantages? Any down sides you have found?
Agree completely about the use of plotters vs paper. Plotters now are just much easier, more accurate and faster, but clearly demand training and experience. I am sorry to hear that you consider RYA slow to come to appropriate training in this area. And I still believe that to properly understand electronic navigation, training in tradition plotting is necessary, but that may not hold for very much longer
You mention “touch screen”: how does that work out at the helm with rain/spray and or wet hands?
I still prepare for what I think of as “lightning strike” mode: all electrical is toast. To that end I carry small scale (large area) paper charts for the areas we are cruising: enough to get us just outside a port where we could follow a fishing boat etc. in to safety. We also carry paper for areas where we wonder whether electronic will be accurate: Greenland a recent ex. And we were pleasantly surprised by how accurate our e-charts were: perhaps more accurate than our borrowed paper charts.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

+x

 

Richard Hudson - 3/29/2020

+x

 

Dick - 3/29/2020

+x

 

Janice FENNYMORE-WHITE - 3/28/2020

We use a chart plotter on Destiny, or rather a PC based version running Time Zero Professional. It runs a screen at the helm and two at the chart table for planning and a radar watch. The helm can display radar, chart or either on overlay or a split screen. AIS targets are on both we can interrogate a target and track it at the touch of the screen. We run a full redundant system as well as isailor on a tablet that also shows all AIS targets.
Simply put we do not use paper charts and have not done so for 30,000 miles. Commercial ships and planes fly without paper charts, it is time the leisure market was trained to do likewise. We are not against the tradition of paper and dividers, as it teaches you the basic skills but the RYA are slow to train the correct way to use electronic charting. We have sailed 2 vessels that used integrated autopilot but neither made an automatic turn without human intervention which rightly you mentioned as unwise but routes made on paper or electronically are still only as good as the navigator that created them. 

   
Hi Janice,
Sounds like a very workable system with redundancy.
It is a nice safety feature to not have the interfaced autopilot make an adjustment to course without a crew OK’ing it. What do you consider the safety advantages of interfacing autopilot and plotter? And what are the “convenience” advantages? Any down sides you have found?
Agree completely about the use of plotters vs paper. Plotters now are just much easier, more accurate and faster, but clearly demand training and experience. I am sorry to hear that you consider RYA slow to come to appropriate training in this area. And I still believe that to properly understand electronic navigation, training in tradition plotting is necessary, but that may not hold for very much longer
You mention “touch screen”: how does that work out at the helm with rain/spray and or wet hands?
I still prepare for what I think of as “lightning strike” mode: all electrical is toast. To that end I carry small scale (large area) paper charts for the areas we are cruising: enough to get us just outside a port where we could follow a fishing boat etc. in to safety. We also carry paper for areas where we wonder whether electronic will be accurate: Greenland a recent ex. And we were pleasantly surprised by how accurate our e-charts were: perhaps more accurate than our borrowed paper charts.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

Hello Dick, dsmith and Janice,

Like you, I find chartplotters to be wonderful devices. When singlehanding into an unfamiliar area, it is so helpful to be able to glance at the plotter and know your position with confidence. As well, the ability to make charts from pictures of paper charts or from Google Earth has been hugely useful to me when cruising poorly-charted areas and in areas that I hadn't planned on visiting before leaving ports where charts could be bought.

To me, the decision on whether or not to back up chartplotters with paper charts depends more on risk analysis than on navigation training, and varies with vessels and crews.

I do not think that commercial ships and airplanes navigating without paper charts necessarily indicates that yachts should do the same.  Commercial ships tend to have highly skilled engineers aboard to keep their systems operational, and airplane crews, equipment and maintenance are regulated far more strictly than are yachts, yacht crews & yacht maintenance. Some yacht crews are highly skilled at maintaining all systems and equipment onboard, but not all.

My first offshore sail was about two decades ago. I had a very reliable hand-start diesel engine, the alternator on which was my sole way of charging batteries. I carried a spare alternator (with regulator).

I had installed an electric bilge pump with the outlet just below the deck, a long way from the waterline. I had not put a valve on the through-hull for the outlet. During a gale, while running the engine to charge the batteries, waves pushed water down the outlet hose, past the bilge pump and into the bilge. As the water level rose, the engine flywheel threw it around the engine room. When I noticed, I shut down the engine, pumped the bilge and plugged the bilge pump outlet so no more water would get in.

A few, tropical, days later, the alternator was a mass of corrosion, and had stopped charging. No problem, I thought--that's why I carried a brand-new spare. But the bolt that held the alternator had also seized, and I was unable to get it off to change the alternator! While we did eventually run the batteries down and lose all electrical power on that voyage, we made landfall safely with paper charts.

I was thankful to have paper charts to navigate with.

Now, clearly, I had made a mistake in installing that bilge pump. And having multiple charging methods would have been more robust than one. But people make mistakes...

In my opinion, deciding whether to navigate a yacht solely with chartplotters requires thinking about possible modes of failure (ie power, connections, software updates, physical damage, lightning strike); how likely those failures could be; and what can be done about them (spares, tools, skills).

Nowadays, on my boat, I mostly navigate with a chartplotter (powered by a Raspberry Pi single-board computer, and carry three spare units). I have two laptops with navigation software for backup, and also have paper charts as backup and for overall voyage planning (it's easier to look at long routes on paper charts). My boat's batteries are charged by engine alternator, generator, solar & wind, and I carry an extensive set of tools to help keep things running. 

I agree with Dick that paper charts (and using them at least occasionally to keep in practice) are still valuable for many boats and crews.

Best wishes to all, and keep on sailing.
Richard

+x

 

Dick - 3/30/2020

+x

 

Richard Hudson - 3/29/2020

+x

 

Dick - 3/29/2020

+x

 

Janice FENNYMORE-WHITE - 3/28/2020

We use a chart plotter on Destiny, or rather a PC based version running Time Zero Professional. It runs a screen at the helm and two at the chart table for planning and a radar watch. The helm can display radar, chart or either on overlay or a split screen. AIS targets are on both we can interrogate a target and track it at the touch of the screen. We run a full redundant system as well as isailor on a tablet that also shows all AIS targets.
Simply put we do not use paper charts and have not done so for 30,000 miles. Commercial ships and planes fly without paper charts, it is time the leisure market was trained to do likewise. We are not against the tradition of paper and dividers, as it teaches you the basic skills but the RYA are slow to train the correct way to use electronic charting. We have sailed 2 vessels that used integrated autopilot but neither made an automatic turn without human intervention which rightly you mentioned as unwise but routes made on paper or electronically are still only as good as the navigator that created them. 

   
Hi Janice,
Sounds like a very workable system with redundancy.
It is a nice safety feature to not have the interfaced autopilot make an adjustment to course without a crew OK’ing it. What do you consider the safety advantages of interfacing autopilot and plotter? And what are the “convenience” advantages? Any down sides you have found?
Agree completely about the use of plotters vs paper. Plotters now are just much easier, more accurate and faster, but clearly demand training and experience. I am sorry to hear that you consider RYA slow to come to appropriate training in this area. And I still believe that to properly understand electronic navigation, training in tradition plotting is necessary, but that may not hold for very much longer
You mention “touch screen”: how does that work out at the helm with rain/spray and or wet hands?
I still prepare for what I think of as “lightning strike” mode: all electrical is toast. To that end I carry small scale (large area) paper charts for the areas we are cruising: enough to get us just outside a port where we could follow a fishing boat etc. in to safety. We also carry paper for areas where we wonder whether electronic will be accurate: Greenland a recent ex. And we were pleasantly surprised by how accurate our e-charts were: perhaps more accurate than our borrowed paper charts.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

Hello Dick, dsmith and Janice,

Like you, I find chartplotters to be wonderful devices. When singlehanding into an unfamiliar area, it is so helpful to be able to glance at the plotter and know your position with confidence. As well, the ability to make charts from pictures of paper charts or from Google Earth has been hugely useful to me when cruising poorly-charted areas and in areas that I hadn't planned on visiting before leaving ports where charts could be bought.

To me, the decision on whether or not to back up chartplotters with paper charts depends more on risk analysis than on navigation training, and varies with vessels and crews.

I do not think that commercial ships and airplanes navigating without paper charts necessarily indicates that yachts should do the same.  Commercial ships tend to have highly skilled engineers aboard to keep their systems operational, and airplane crews, equipment and maintenance are regulated far more strictly than are yachts, yacht crews & yacht maintenance. Some yacht crews are highly skilled at maintaining all systems and equipment onboard, but not all.

My first offshore sail was about two decades ago. I had a very reliable hand-start diesel engine, the alternator on which was my sole way of charging batteries. I carried a spare alternator (with regulator).

I had installed an electric bilge pump with the outlet just below the deck, a long way from the waterline. I had not put a valve on the through-hull for the outlet. During a gale, while running the engine to charge the batteries, waves pushed water down the outlet hose, past the bilge pump and into the bilge. As the water level rose, the engine flywheel threw it around the engine room. When I noticed, I shut down the engine, pumped the bilge and plugged the bilge pump outlet so no more water would get in.

A few, tropical, days later, the alternator was a mass of corrosion, and had stopped charging. No problem, I thought--that's why I carried a brand-new spare. But the bolt that held the alternator had also seized, and I was unable to get it off to change the alternator! While we did eventually run the batteries down and lose all electrical power on that voyage, we made landfall safely with paper charts.

I was thankful to have paper charts to navigate with.

Now, clearly, I had made a mistake in installing that bilge pump. And having multiple charging methods would have been more robust than one. But people make mistakes...

In my opinion, deciding whether to navigate a yacht solely with chartplotters requires thinking about possible modes of failure (ie power, connections, software updates, physical damage, lightning strike); how likely those failures could be; and what can be done about them (spares, tools, skills).

Nowadays, on my boat, I mostly navigate with a chartplotter (powered by a Raspberry Pi single-board computer, and carry three spare units). I have two laptops with navigation software for backup, and also have paper charts as backup and for overall voyage planning (it's easier to look at long routes on paper charts). My boat's batteries are charged by engine alternator, generator, solar & wind, and I carry an extensive set of tools to help keep things running. 

I agree with Dick that paper charts (and using them at least occasionally to keep in practice) are still valuable for many boats and crews.

Best wishes to all, and keep on sailing.
Richard

Hi Richard,
That is exactly the kind of “risk analysis” that informs much of my writing and I should have labeled it as such. And that is exactly the kind of unpredictable, but statistically possible, event that one should plan for and that leads me to carry charts that will get me at least to the entrance of what I consider “bail-out ports”.
And yes, it’s a bitch to learn from your own mistakes: far better to learn from others. So, thank you for sharing your story
BTW, to continue to capitalize on your misfortune to good ends, I would want to note that a high water alarm would have prevented that particular disaster (see further my article of flooding prevention and flooding response in the Forum).
And whenever I get salt water on equipment such as engine parts, I liberally spray all areas with with WD40 (do the alternator while running). It displaces water and at least gives you a fighting chance.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
BTW, I have heard good things about the Raspberry Pi way of operating computers/nav programs and such, but it was way above my skill level. You might start another stream where you describe the advantages and challenges.

+x

 

Richard Hudson - 4/1/2020

+x

 

Dick - 3/30/2020

+x

 

Richard Hudson - 3/29/2020

+x

 

Dick - 3/29/2020

+x

 

Janice FENNYMORE-WHITE - 3/28/2020

We use a chart plotter on Destiny, or rather a PC based version running Time Zero Professional. It runs a screen at the helm and two at the chart table for planning and a radar watch. The helm can display radar, chart or either on overlay or a split screen. AIS targets are on both we can interrogate a target and track it at the touch of the screen. We run a full redundant system as well as isailor on a tablet that also shows all AIS targets.
Simply put we do not use paper charts and have not done so for 30,000 miles. Commercial ships and planes fly without paper charts, it is time the leisure market was trained to do likewise. We are not against the tradition of paper and dividers, as it teaches you the basic skills but the RYA are slow to train the correct way to use electronic charting. We have sailed 2 vessels that used integrated autopilot but neither made an automatic turn without human intervention which rightly you mentioned as unwise but routes made on paper or electronically are still only as good as the navigator that created them. 

   
Hi Janice,
Sounds like a very workable system with redundancy.
It is a nice safety feature to not have the interfaced autopilot make an adjustment to course without a crew OK’ing it. What do you consider the safety advantages of interfacing autopilot and plotter? And what are the “convenience” advantages? Any down sides you have found?
Agree completely about the use of plotters vs paper. Plotters now are just much easier, more accurate and faster, but clearly demand training and experience. I am sorry to hear that you consider RYA slow to come to appropriate training in this area. And I still believe that to properly understand electronic navigation, training in tradition plotting is necessary, but that may not hold for very much longer
You mention “touch screen”: how does that work out at the helm with rain/spray and or wet hands?
I still prepare for what I think of as “lightning strike” mode: all electrical is toast. To that end I carry small scale (large area) paper charts for the areas we are cruising: enough to get us just outside a port where we could follow a fishing boat etc. in to safety. We also carry paper for areas where we wonder whether electronic will be accurate: Greenland a recent ex. And we were pleasantly surprised by how accurate our e-charts were: perhaps more accurate than our borrowed paper charts.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

Hello Dick, dsmith and Janice,

Like you, I find chartplotters to be wonderful devices. When singlehanding into an unfamiliar area, it is so helpful to be able to glance at the plotter and know your position with confidence. As well, the ability to make charts from pictures of paper charts or from Google Earth has been hugely useful to me when cruising poorly-charted areas and in areas that I hadn't planned on visiting before leaving ports where charts could be bought.

To me, the decision on whether or not to back up chartplotters with paper charts depends more on risk analysis than on navigation training, and varies with vessels and crews.

I do not think that commercial ships and airplanes navigating without paper charts necessarily indicates that yachts should do the same.  Commercial ships tend to have highly skilled engineers aboard to keep their systems operational, and airplane crews, equipment and maintenance are regulated far more strictly than are yachts, yacht crews & yacht maintenance. Some yacht crews are highly skilled at maintaining all systems and equipment onboard, but not all.

My first offshore sail was about two decades ago. I had a very reliable hand-start diesel engine, the alternator on which was my sole way of charging batteries. I carried a spare alternator (with regulator).

I had installed an electric bilge pump with the outlet just below the deck, a long way from the waterline. I had not put a valve on the through-hull for the outlet. During a gale, while running the engine to charge the batteries, waves pushed water down the outlet hose, past the bilge pump and into the bilge. As the water level rose, the engine flywheel threw it around the engine room. When I noticed, I shut down the engine, pumped the bilge and plugged the bilge pump outlet so no more water would get in.

A few, tropical, days later, the alternator was a mass of corrosion, and had stopped charging. No problem, I thought--that's why I carried a brand-new spare. But the bolt that held the alternator had also seized, and I was unable to get it off to change the alternator! While we did eventually run the batteries down and lose all electrical power on that voyage, we made landfall safely with paper charts.

I was thankful to have paper charts to navigate with.

Now, clearly, I had made a mistake in installing that bilge pump. And having multiple charging methods would have been more robust than one. But people make mistakes...

In my opinion, deciding whether to navigate a yacht solely with chartplotters requires thinking about possible modes of failure (ie power, connections, software updates, physical damage, lightning strike); how likely those failures could be; and what can be done about them (spares, tools, skills).

Nowadays, on my boat, I mostly navigate with a chartplotter (powered by a Raspberry Pi single-board computer, and carry three spare units). I have two laptops with navigation software for backup, and also have paper charts as backup and for overall voyage planning (it's easier to look at long routes on paper charts). My boat's batteries are charged by engine alternator, generator, solar & wind, and I carry an extensive set of tools to help keep things running. 

I agree with Dick that paper charts (and using them at least occasionally to keep in practice) are still valuable for many boats and crews.

Best wishes to all, and keep on sailing.
Richard

Hi Richard,
That is exactly the kind of “risk analysis” that informs much of my writing and I should have labeled it as such. And that is exactly the kind of unpredictable, but statistically possible, event that one should plan for and that leads me to carry charts that will get me at least to the entrance of what I consider “bail-out ports”.
And yes, it’s a bitch to learn from your own mistakes: far better to learn from others. So, thank you for sharing your story
BTW, to continue to capitalize on your misfortune to good ends, I would want to note that a high water alarm would have prevented that particular disaster (see further my article of flooding prevention and flooding response in the Forum).
And whenever I get salt water on equipment such as engine parts, I liberally spray all areas with with WD40 (do the alternator while running). It displaces water and at least gives you a fighting chance.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
BTW, I have heard good things about the Raspberry Pi way of operating computers/nav programs and such, but it was way above my skill level. You might start another stream where you describe the advantages and challenges.

Hi Dick,

Good point, yes, a high-water alarm would have prevented or reduced that problem of the alternator corroding (I have such an alarm now--can't remember why I didn't have one back then), and spraying with WD40 is helpful for displacing water and preventing corrosion. 

I'll give some thought to writing more about the Raspberry Pi as a navigation computer--it's a low-cost system with a lot of functionality.

Richard

+x

 

Dick - 2/25/2020

+x

 

dsmith - 2/25/2020

Having a plotter, or a repeater at the helm or under a spray hood (I'd class both as being at the helm, if the Helmsman can see it.) , is a great benefit to the Helmsman.

Not only can they see the course to steer, they have a live picture of what is actually happening. If they are getting off course by wind, tide or both, they can see it and adjust accordingly; rather than doing 30 min or hourly adjustments if you need to plot it on a paper chart. 

If you're lucky enough to have an intergrated RADAR, even better for getting into those cosy little anchorages or harbours at night or bad vis'.

I guess it's a case of what you're used to, and how competent your are with using it. I'm lucky to have done an ECDIS course and  I use ECDIS in work every day.

If it's set up correctly and your electronics, batteries, genset, etc are up to it, you don't need to carry paper charts except for emergencies. 

Hi DSmith,
Thanks for weighing in with a differing take on this issue. I agree that being able to see a plotter from the helm is of great benefit: improves safety. I also agree completely about having access to being able to see a radar display from the helm: mine is visible from the helm and is under the dodger. I also suspect that luck played little role in your having an ECDIS course under your belt: rather good judgment on your part in choosing the course in preparation for your cruising.
I do disagree with seeing the plotter at the helm as the same as a plotter under the dodger. I will elaborate my reasons for thinking the chart plotter at the helm is not the wisest location on an offshore sailboat (and actually, to a lesser extent, on any sailboat).
Neither Phillip nor I are against being able to see the chart plotter from the helm: quite the opposite. I can see mine under the dodger quite easily accomplishing all the visual cues that you so correctly value in your post. Phillip also mentions his being visible by those in the cockpit. So, if one can see the chart plotter under the dodger from the helm, the only reason to have it at the helm is to do navigation and plotting: to work its controls. Possibly there are really big boats where helm position is too far a distance to see a plotter under the dodger, but I have seen this accomplished on boats in the mid 50s in length.
For most far-ranging boats, the helm is rarely manned. The vast majority of our mileage is accomplished with no one at the helm. I believe this to be the case for most passage makers and even, most coastal cruisers. An under dodger chart plotter is much easier to monitor and manipulate from one’s usually watch position sitting in the protection of the dodger.
Anyone at the helm actively driving the boat should never have interference with his/her situational awareness, most of which should be directed outside the boat with occasional glances at the chart plotter. Doing any navigation plotting interferes dramatically with situational awareness. This is fine in open water with no obstacles about, but active adjustments and navigation decisions are often made when entering a harbor, transiting a passage or in the vicinity of obstacles. Think, perhaps, of the danger inherent in handheld cell phone manipulation while driving.
Lastly, instrument manufacturers have come a good way towards making equipment truly waterproof, but having such an important piece of kit and its many electrical and data exchange connections exposed to rain/sun etc. and to the assaults of salt water and seas when offshore seems to be asking for trouble somewhere down the line. Then there is the ease with which it might be stolen, something I think about even in the more hidden area under the dodger where my plotter lives.
So, in the end, I see no advantage to a helm position plotter and lots of potential disadvantages.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy