By simoncurrin - 30 May 2013
We have just removed our very corroded SSB ground plate and looking to replace. I came across http://www.kiss-ssb.com/vacations.html on the web which seems to be a much better solution in that there is no through hull or corrosion. Does anyone have any experience of this? It seems to good to be true.
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By Paul Heiney - 30 May 2013
I have one but my ATU got drowned before I had time to try it out. The principle is well known and if you know what you 're doing you can make one yourself for very little cost. Sorry I have no experience to share.
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By jgbailey - 21 Jun 2013
Simon, I looked up the website the product, it looks great. I also asked the team that support the ARC yachts with SSB equipment for some feedback. The response was " we bought a couple of these ariels and tested them. We also took them apart and found that all was not as claimed". I am in the process of finding out more through ex Royal Navy friends.
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By simoncurrin - 21 Jun 2013
Thanks I would be really interested to hear their conclusions.
Simon
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By jgbailey - 29 Jun 2013
Simon, the RN feedback was, that it should work in theory.
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By ka4wja - 1 Jul 2013
Simon,
I can give you more details and information than you 'd ever desire. But, first some brief, direct answers...
[quote="simoncurrin" post=966]We have just removed our very corroded SSB ground plate and looking to replace. I came across http://www.kiss-ssb.com/vacations.html on the web which seems to be a much better solution in that there is no through hull or corrosion. Does anyone have any experience of this? It seems to good to be true.[/quote]
1) Save your money!!
The KISS-SSB Ground is a waste of money, as it will do little for you.
It will do nothing that a couple random-length, scrap pieces of plain copper wire (attached to your remote auto-tuner 's ground lug) would do. And the scrap pieces of wire are either cheap or FREE...
This has been proven by both scientific testing (see links below) and real world on-air testing, as well...
(it 's a shame that this hasn 't yet made it across the Atlantic....sorry about that, I should 've posted some of this here, last year!)
2) There is/was quite detailed discussions about the "KISS", on my side of the Atlantic for the past year or two.
Including photos of the inside of the KISS, as well as detailed spectrum traces (from my own tests last year) showing its lack of any real resonances. And, multiple on-air comparisons as well.
For LOTS of details, photos, and screen shots of the actual response of the "KISS" in various locations/configurations (including in my own lazarette), please have a look at these discussions.
(This first one jumps you into the guts of the discussion and gives you the best overall sense of the KISS....and the remaining ones bring you to the beginning, should you find yourself with days of spare time to read it all!)
http://www.ssca.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13490&start=75
http://www.ssca.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13490
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/the-kiss-ssb-counterpoise-revealed-with-pics-56551-13.html
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f13/the-kiss-ssb-counterpoise-revealed-with-pics-56551.html
3) For attaching your antenna tuner 's ground lug to the sea water (to utilize the sea water as your antenna ground/counterpoise), use of copper strapping is preferred, as 3" wide copper has 48% less inductance than 14 ga copper wire.
If you use copper strapping (of at least 0.012" thickness to 0.022" thickness) rather than the thin foil (of 0.002" - 0.003" thickness) sold by chandleries, etc. it will last a LONG time (many years...10+ years in most cases..)
And, if you paint the copper strapping before installing it (I use a clear lacquer paint), or paint / epoxy after installation, it will last decades (20+ years) without any problems....
See this discussion for the details of the inductance issues, copper strapping vs. copper wire..
http://www.ssca.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=14156&start=15
4) As for "what" the antenna ground / counterpoise is supposed to do???
There have been many books written on the subject, and I cannot type it all here :)
(I did write quiet a bit in some of the above linked discussions, look at the last page of the Cruiser 's Forum thread...)
In brief, here is some of what I wrote last year:
Entire books have been written about counterpoises, etc......and written by guys with a far better understanding of the science than I...
(Yeah, I 'm good.....real good with antennas, counterpoises, etc....but I 'm no Walt Maxwell or L.B. Cebik, Frank Jones, Bill Orr, etc. etc....)
So, what to write here that anyone would believe????
Hmmm, I 'm not sure....(hopefully I 'll come up with some good ideas later....but 'til then, here a few quick things...)
The way we use antennas for HF comms on-board our boats, the "counterpoises" we use, function in multiple ways....depending on the freqs/band, length of antenna (backstay, whip, etc.), and exact design/lay-out of the counterpoise, any/all of the below are the primary ways our counterpoises function:
1 -- reduce/eliminate feedline radiation.....
2 -- on most freqs / bands, they provide "the other half of the antenna"..(allowing the antenna return currents traveling through the ground / sea water, to get back to the antenna feed-point / base of the antenna, more effectively)
3 -- shunt "un-radiated" RF to ground (reducing RFI, etc.).....
4 -- assist an antenna couple (auto-tuner) in making an adequate match..
(although, some may question the "necessity" of this last item these days, as our modern auto-tuners could match a " wire coat-hanger", etc.....what this last function gives us is, the ability of the auto-tuner to find a more efficient tuning regime, thereby allowing more of our transmitted power to be properly coupled TO the antenna...is it "necessary", no....is it "desirable", YES! )
One of the misunderstandings that always amazes me is that many do not grasp the "differences" between using the sea water as our antenna ground/counterpoise, vs. using an artificial counterpoise made up of "radials"...(little distinction is made, between different ground/counterpoise systems, but there are REAL differences!)
The simple fact that using wire radials as a "counterpoise" does work, and
the simple fact that using copper strap to connect to the sea water, using the sea water as a "counterpoise" also works.....
They are NOT mutually exclusive....they are just different.....
(on-board radial-type counterpoises are typically made to be resonant on certain bands/freqs, and work "good-enough" elsewhere......
and, sea water-type counterpoises are broadband, and typically also have a fair amount of copper strapping inside the vessel that is functioning as part of the "counterpoise", similarly to the fact that the GTO-15 wire leaving your auto-tuner IS part of your antenna....)
There are pluses and minuses in both.....(barnacles, installation time/effort, complexity, possibility of RFI, etc.)
They both work.....which one you choose depends on many variables....
What works well for one application / one owner, may not be optimal for another.....
But, in most installations/applications the direct sea water connection, utilizing the sea water as the primary antenna ground/counterpoise, works best!!!
I hope all of the above helps, and does not overly complicate/confuse??
Fair winds..
John
s/v Annie Laurie
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By simoncurrin - 1 Jul 2013
Thanks John,
In the end I dipped into my wallet and replaced the through hull ground plates so your email makes me feel better about this decision.
Simon
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By jgbailey - 18 Jul 2015
All / Simon
I recently came across this article which seems to offer an easy way of reducing the interference on SSB radios. (Switch your fridge off during transmission.)
The full article is readable via the link below.
http://www.oceannavigator.com/Web-Exclusives-2015/Reducing-radio-interference/
John
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By Dick - 12 Nov 2015
Hey all,
I have been a ham x 15 years and doing Winlink for the same amount for wx and emails as a full time live-aboard. I have done 2 SSB installations and consulted on numerous others. My take is that many forms of counterpoise work fine for when conditions are adequate to good, but that some of the “short cut” methods fall off dramatically when conditions get marginal. I suspect that is why there is are some quite varied reports as to performance. Many parts of the world you can connect with a wet finger as an aerial. Others are far more challenging.
More important, possibly, is the general inadequacy of many SSB installations, even those done by “professionals”. Casual observation reveals a lack of stand-offs for the high energy wire to the backstay on many installations, and if that is done, I would think likely short cuts by laziness or lack of knowledge were hidden in the less observable portions of the boat.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By snelem - 17 Nov 2015
Hi Simon,
As already posted in another topic, I have installed and used a Kiss ground plane this year on our trip to the Azores. We had another problem with the installation and had a knowledgeable radio amateur look at the installation on Faial. He solved the problem and also commented that the antenna and ground plane setup worked very well.
I installed the ground plane for exactly the same reasons you state and we are happy with it!
Erik Snel
sy Dutch Rose
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By Kelly - 22 Dec 2015
I am using a GAMM split lead antenna slipped up my backstay. The backstay is only 30 ft and the antenna ~34 ft. I clamped a piece of 6 ' x 1" square aluminum tube at the top of the backstay to gain the extra few feet. On the other side of the antenna tuner I attached a KTSS Counterpoise. I added an RF Isolator at the antenna cable from the ICOM m802 and everything works perfectly with no stray RF bounding around the boat.
The best news is that I will be on the hard stand for a couple of weeks to replace a rudder that decided it did not want to go with the boat (and only a fifteen hour tow to get back to do the repair -- if the rudder did not want to go, you would think it would have said something. Very inconsiderate.)
Before you spend too much on copper foil, sand paper, epoxy... drop $150 into the KTSS, put it where it fits and is out of the way. If it does not work bor you, you can always spend the time, energy, and money to go the old fashioned way. However, my experience is that it works perfectly.
Note: I lost close to $12K to a lightening strike that did not even hit the boat. Had it come through the rigging, I would have lost more. Think about grounding the rig to sea. I am towing zinc fish on 8 AWG that is clamped to main and mizzen shrouds and can be readily deployed in threat.
Kelly
S/V Patience
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By Dick - 26 Dec 2015
Hi Kelly,
Thanks for the field report.
Practical Sailor (a US publication I think well of) did a review of these products a while back and, if memory serves, thought well of them.
My best, Dick Stevenson, KC2HKW, s/v Alchemy
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By Allanr529 - 7 Jun 2016
Interesting comments from a variety of backgrounds; technical and users. From my perspective:
1. I have recommended the KISS-SSB counterpoise/earth to about ten yachts and I 've not have one complaint.
2. I get comments about HF/SSB radio performance from many yachts. People with the KISS-SSB seem to be happy. Reports about their performance are consistent and positive. Perhaps not the top performer, but always performing.
3. I think other factors mentioned here in posts are very relevant, especially the quality of the installation. And backstay spacers.
4. I commonly hear of people who say their radio worked a lot better when it was just installed. Routine maintenance seems important to clean off corrosion at connection points - on the ATU, each end of the copper strap between the ATU and the earth plate, where the antenna cable connects onto the backstay, through deck insulators etc.
5. Which brings me to the earth plate. The earth plate I see commonly fitted to yachts is that small unit which I understand claims to have excellent surface area contact with the water because it has thousands of small holes. That 's a characteristic which I 'm sure works well when new, but disappears rather quickly because of marine growth. And especially because of an unintended brush with antifoul; which is easily removed at the visible surface but cannot be removed inside the thousands of tiny holes.
6. My yacht has for many years used a Moonraker earth plate. Certainly not small and compact as the above mentioned unit. It is about 5 x 10 inches and has vertical fins across it to create more surface area. It is easily cleaned of marine growth with a wire brush on a snorkel and goggle dive, and even a coating of antifoul can be totally removed; no microscopic holes. Used by commercial and military vessels as well as recreation. See http://media.wix.com/ugd/ee8b7f_833d5ab376384d109d1402c8ac2c7596.pdf
I 've watched a rather desperate crew (of a newly purchased yacht where the previous owner said he never needed an earth plate for his HF/SSB) fit one of these in the water by preparing the earth plate bolts with sealant, drilling the holes from inside and quickly pushing the bolts in from outside, tightening up and pumping the bilge. Not for the feint hearted.
7. My conclusion - based largely on comments from owners - is that when the external earth plate is functioning properly the result can be superior to the KISS-SSB. But over time, that earth plate effectiveness deteriorates, in particular, the type that is small but claims to have lots of surface area via thousands of tiny holes. Then the yacht with the KISS-SSB has the best radio performance in the fleet.
8. When I fit a new HF/SSB radio to my yacht I will try a KISS-SSB.
Best wishes
Allan
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By Dick - 7 Jun 2016
Hi Allen,
I think yours is an accurate and nicely balanced report.
I am a little out of the loop as I have been in Europe for a decade now and, on the water, the east side of the North Atlantic uses SSB far less than the American side. Casual reports from friends supports the use of the KISS set up for participating in the Caribbean nets and using Sailmail, but suggest the more traditional installation designs for work in areas likely to have more marginal conditions.
Your admonition on continuing maintenance and quality of initial installation is wise. Electrical connections are the first place to look when deteriorating communication is noticed. Please also note that, in my view, many professional SSB installers do not do good jobs. A handy amateur who has done good research will likely do as good a job, with maybe a hire of a local expert to review the installation. At least the owner should have educated him/herself enough to look over the installer’s shoulder.
If there continues to be trouble look into toroidal coils/chokes and line isolators: easy to install and, sometimes, make a huge difference.
Backstay spacers are the most common error I see. Of course it is the most visually easy to see, but I wonder, if something so fundamental is in error, what other installation problems lie in the less visible areas.
My best, Dick (KC2HKW) Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By Allanr529 - 8 Jun 2016
Hi Dick,
I completely agree with you that some apparently professional installations can be problematic. I also agree that this important communications devise is an equipment item which owners/crew would be prudent to ensure they have sufficient knowledge about the key installation elements and routine maintenance tasks to make informed decisions about problem solving. Otherwise it 's easy for something simple like dirty contacts to stop it working, or to cause an expensive repair.
In my experience there are destinations where maintenance people have limited skills or problem solving abilities. If you don 't have some reasonable knowledge to help the problem solving process it 's easy to become a victim of "just buy a new one" maintenance people. Inside the radio box is some intimidating rocket science, but linking the radio components together is just wiring and connections and these are the most likely places to have a problem. They are also very user serviceable, sometimes simply by unplugging and re-plugging, to scrape off corrosion. Installing spacers between the backstay and antenna cable is an owner-service task. An old cutting board is a good source of these spacers.
Chokes and isolators can be essential to prevent RFI problems in some yachts. And so is running HF radio cables (eg from radio box to ATU and ATU to antenna) away from other equipment to minimise the opportunity to create RFI problems. I recall a few yachts with serious autopilot problems when the HF/SSB radio transmitted, resulting in some comical scrambling around the boat.
The other issue that creates problems in some brands of notebook is low quality USB ports. A SailMail user can suddenly see an error message about lost contact with Pactor the moment they try to connect. Ferrite chokes etc can often fix this, but an easier and convenient option is to buy a Pactor Controller with bluetooth, so there is no cable between the Pactor Controller and the PC/notebook. Apart from eliminating the RFI problem with the USB port, it gives far more flexibility about placement of equipment and where you sit/stand to write emails, look at the received GRIB files, etc.
Regards
Allan
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