Forum Change to Login Arrangements - PLEASE READ


Author
Message
0
0
0
posted Last Year HOT
New Member (12 reputation)New Member (12 reputation)New Member (12 reputation)New Member (12 reputation)New Member (12 reputation)New Member (12 reputation)New Member (12 reputation)New Member (12 reputation)New Member (12 reputation)
Group: Administrators
Posts: 5, Visits: 68
Please note that due to security concerns and to keep the forums free from malicious activity the forums have reverted to using the same OCC Username and Password as that used for the OCC Website. If you have forgotten your password you can request a reminder from the login page.
Dick
Dick
I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 584, Visits: 1.3K
0 - 10/22/2019
Please note that due to security concerns and to keep the forums free from malicious activity the forums have reverted to using the same OCC Username and Password as that used for the OCC Website. If you have forgotten your password you can request a reminder from the login page.

Hi Phillip,
Tell Norma I feel her pain and hope it is the last time.
I think a fuel polishing system is a good idea for any widely wandering cruising vessel and a great idea if you are in areas where one is getting fuel from 50g barrels and the like. There is a secondary reason to have clean fuel besides engine performance: your fuel tanks will last a lot longer.
A dual Racor fuel filter system is also wise. Did you happen to notice the vacuum gauge reading when drawing from the clogged filter? Do you check the pressure guage regularly and was it creeping up or catastrophically rose? I would have expected some rough engine running before actually stalling: was that the case or was the stalling abrupt? Usually, (I think), there is sufficient evidence that something is awry that you can switch to the good filter before the engine becomes fuel starved and you are looking at bleeding the engine.
I took a quick look at the Marine 16 Diesel Dipper and I was left with a few questions unanswered and perhaps my quick look missed the answers: I found no track record and do not know when introduced and how many were out there. For “mission critical” systems I do not like doing the R&D for the product and would lean towards 10 years of the product being out there doing its thing and there being a sufficient amount of field reports.
I also wonder at 40-micron filter: that seems a bit course. I also suspect that the filter working when at sea and the fuel sloshing around is a advertising ploy. Any time the tanks are sloshed around the water/sludge/gunk will come loose and settle to the bottom of the tank when at rest. Any system that has access to the bottom of the tank (or at least below the pick-up tube) will then be able to get the bad stuff out when at anchor or at a marina.
Also, it is wise to have two tanks on a voyaging vessel and I suspect that would mean 2 installations of the Dipper with its attendant expense and installation issues.
If you can get to the bottom of your tank, the below might be of interest. It is Alchemy’s fuel “polishing” system that has kept our tanks clean for 70,000+ miles and lots of fuel from questionable sources.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

FUEL POLISHING SUGGESTION                Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
The following was written for a specific boat (a Valiant 42), but variations on the basics below make polishing fuel possible on any vessel. The one challenge is getting to the bottom/low corner of the tank. If one is building new tanks, a fuel polishing pick-up going to the bottom low corner should be considered.
Fuel polishing serves at least 2 functions: good fuel to the engine and, secondarily, to keep accumulated water and yuck (technical term) from attacking the tank itself and shortening a tank’s life. Many owner-designed fuel polishing draws through the pickup tube which leaves the bottom of the tank untouched. I was lucky as Valiant 42s (like Alchemy) with saddle tanks, it is possible to get to the very bottom through the connecting fitting between tanks. It is relatively easy to tap into this connection to draw fuel from below the pickup tube. All other boats must figure a way to get to the bottom of the tank, usually possible, but often demanding some creativity: worth the effort.
Fuel Polishing for Alchemy, V42-128, with saddle tanks
What I like about this system is that it covers both polishing the fuel and getting crud/water and any loose stuff from the tank bottoms below the pick-up tube. It does not, however, get inside the tank and scrape the sides etc., but the extra cleaning suggestion below does a bit of that.
Alchemy’s saddle tanks are great in that they have a nipple on each tank at their lower end. The 2 tanks on each side are connected to each other from these low nipples with a valve in between. I broke into the hose near the lower nipple, attached a “T” and added a valve onto the T with a hose fitting.* I now have access to the fuel from the bottom of each tank. The lower tank is of course the more important as stuff migrates there. I did this both port & starboard. There are 2 tanks on each side of a 42 w/ saddle tanks (4 altogether) right next to each other fore and aft. (there are 2 per side to get them into the locker through the hatch: a nice touch as too many boats seal their tanks into the boat when they put the deck on).
The “polisher”
I then mounted an old Racor filter assembly (if possible, use the same filter as used on the boat) with hoses and a fuel pump on a board with a cigarette lighter attachment for power for the fuel pump. (Remember, you want to draw fuel through the filter, not push.)
The following pertains to my boat: other must attach the polisher assembly to allow them to draw off the bottom. I attach the intake hose to the “T”ed off valve fitting and put the outlet into the deck fill. Open the T valve and you are pumping off the bottom of the tanks. Close off the upper tank with the Valiant built in valve and you are only drawing off the lower tank in the corner where crud/water accumulates.
How often?
We do an hour or two of polishing each side every 2-3 months during the season (or sooner if concerned I have gotten bad fuel). This runs about 17 gal. (1/3rd of the tank capacity) through the filter in each tank which I have been keeping at 10 micron. I take from the bottom and put into the top unless I am emptying a tank for the winter.** We can also pump from drums and guarantee that the fuel from the drums is clean before it gets into the tanks.
Extra tank cleaning
This is for Valiant 42s and can be accomplished by disassembly of the valves etc. at the base of the tanks. Remove the lower nipple and there is a nice, not big, but nice size hole in the tank wall. Take a dowel with rag sections attached (electrical ties or just tied on) and insert and scrape. Continue as needed. Tedious but does get some yuck. And with a bit of a right angle insert you can get right in the corner.
*Something I recommend in V42s is a simple plywood partition protecting the valve/hose assembly at the base of the tanks from lines etc. that may be stored in the locker. These could get caught on the valves/hose and inadvertently pulled damaging these connections.
**The pump also acts to transfer fuel. I usually empty one tank each winter (into the other) to have Alchemy sit higher in the water. I have found that an empty tank will not collect water over a winter in the Med or in the UK.




Philip Heaton
Philip Heaton
Junior Member (79 reputation)Junior Member (79 reputation)Junior Member (79 reputation)Junior Member (79 reputation)Junior Member (79 reputation)Junior Member (79 reputation)Junior Member (79 reputation)Junior Member (79 reputation)Junior Member (79 reputation)
Group: Moderators
Posts: 54, Visits: 154
Dick - 10/23/2019
0 - 10/22/2019
Please note that due to security concerns and to keep the forums free from malicious activity the forums have reverted to using the same OCC Username and Password as that used for the OCC Website. If you have forgotten your password you can request a reminder from the login page.

Hi Phillip,
Tell Norma I feel her pain and hope it is the last time.
I think a fuel polishing system is a good idea for any widely wandering cruising vessel and a great idea if you are in areas where one is getting fuel from 50g barrels and the like. There is a secondary reason to have clean fuel besides engine performance: your fuel tanks will last a lot longer.
A dual Racor fuel filter system is also wise. Did you happen to notice the vacuum gauge reading when drawing from the clogged filter? Do you check the pressure guage regularly and was it creeping up or catastrophically rose? I would have expected some rough engine running before actually stalling: was that the case or was the stalling abrupt? Usually, (I think), there is sufficient evidence that something is awry that you can switch to the good filter before the engine becomes fuel starved and you are looking at bleeding the engine.
I took a quick look at the Marine 16 Diesel Dipper and I was left with a few questions unanswered and perhaps my quick look missed the answers: I found no track record and do not know when introduced and how many were out there. For “mission critical” systems I do not like doing the R&D for the product and would lean towards 10 years of the product being out there doing its thing and there being a sufficient amount of field reports.
I also wonder at 40-micron filter: that seems a bit course. I also suspect that the filter working when at sea and the fuel sloshing around is a advertising ploy. Any time the tanks are sloshed around the water/sludge/gunk will come loose and settle to the bottom of the tank when at rest. Any system that has access to the bottom of the tank (or at least below the pick-up tube) will then be able to get the bad stuff out when at anchor or at a marina.
Also, it is wise to have two tanks on a voyaging vessel and I suspect that would mean 2 installations of the Dipper with its attendant expense and installation issues.
If you can get to the bottom of your tank, the below might be of interest. It is Alchemy’s fuel “polishing” system that has kept our tanks clean for 70,000+ miles and lots of fuel from questionable sources.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

FUEL POLISHING SUGGESTION                Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
The following was written for a specific boat (a Valiant 42), but variations on the basics below make polishing fuel possible on any vessel. The one challenge is getting to the bottom/low corner of the tank. If one is building new tanks, a fuel polishing pick-up going to the bottom low corner should be considered.
Fuel polishing serves at least 2 functions: good fuel to the engine and, secondarily, to keep accumulated water and yuck (technical term) from attacking the tank itself and shortening a tank’s life. Many owner-designed fuel polishing draws through the pickup tube which leaves the bottom of the tank untouched. I was lucky as Valiant 42s (like Alchemy) with saddle tanks, it is possible to get to the very bottom through the connecting fitting between tanks. It is relatively easy to tap into this connection to draw fuel from below the pickup tube. All other boats must figure a way to get to the bottom of the tank, usually possible, but often demanding some creativity: worth the effort.
Fuel Polishing for Alchemy, V42-128, with saddle tanks
What I like about this system is that it covers both polishing the fuel and getting crud/water and any loose stuff from the tank bottoms below the pick-up tube. It does not, however, get inside the tank and scrape the sides etc., but the extra cleaning suggestion below does a bit of that.
Alchemy’s saddle tanks are great in that they have a nipple on each tank at their lower end. The 2 tanks on each side are connected to each other from these low nipples with a valve in between. I broke into the hose near the lower nipple, attached a “T” and added a valve onto the T with a hose fitting.* I now have access to the fuel from the bottom of each tank. The lower tank is of course the more important as stuff migrates there. I did this both port & starboard. There are 2 tanks on each side of a 42 w/ saddle tanks (4 altogether) right next to each other fore and aft. (there are 2 per side to get them into the locker through the hatch: a nice touch as too many boats seal their tanks into the boat when they put the deck on).
The “polisher”
I then mounted an old Racor filter assembly (if possible, use the same filter as used on the boat) with hoses and a fuel pump on a board with a cigarette lighter attachment for power for the fuel pump. (Remember, you want to draw fuel through the filter, not push.)
The following pertains to my boat: other must attach the polisher assembly to allow them to draw off the bottom. I attach the intake hose to the “T”ed off valve fitting and put the outlet into the deck fill. Open the T valve and you are pumping off the bottom of the tanks. Close off the upper tank with the Valiant built in valve and you are only drawing off the lower tank in the corner where crud/water accumulates.
How often?
We do an hour or two of polishing each side every 2-3 months during the season (or sooner if concerned I have gotten bad fuel). This runs about 17 gal. (1/3rd of the tank capacity) through the filter in each tank which I have been keeping at 10 micron. I take from the bottom and put into the top unless I am emptying a tank for the winter.** We can also pump from drums and guarantee that the fuel from the drums is clean before it gets into the tanks.
Extra tank cleaning
This is for Valiant 42s and can be accomplished by disassembly of the valves etc. at the base of the tanks. Remove the lower nipple and there is a nice, not big, but nice size hole in the tank wall. Take a dowel with rag sections attached (electrical ties or just tied on) and insert and scrape. Continue as needed. Tedious but does get some yuck. And with a bit of a right angle insert you can get right in the corner.
*Something I recommend in V42s is a simple plywood partition protecting the valve/hose assembly at the base of the tanks from lines etc. that may be stored in the locker. These could get caught on the valves/hose and inadvertently pulled damaging these connections.
**The pump also acts to transfer fuel. I usually empty one tank each winter (into the other) to have Alchemy sit higher in the water. I have found that an empty tank will not collect water over a winter in the Med or in the UK.




Hi Dick
Thank you for this - Norma is very happy that you are on her side and she has now vetoed the use of her electric toothbrush so I have to do something else ... dire consequences have been threatened if I do not comply ...

Thank you for that full description of Alchemy's set up. 

My next step before I give up on the Marine 16 option is to talk to them and see if I can get in contact with some purchasers/users.  I share your concern about the fineness of the filter but I can see that a 10 micron filter would be taking out the crud instead of the pre-filter doing this.  I will ask for the reasoning and let you know what they have to say.

There was just one very brief change of engine note about two hours before it cut out.  So it was somewhat sudden.

Your advice, as always, is very much appreciated.

Best regards
Phil
Dick
Dick
I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 584, Visits: 1.3K
Philip Heaton - 10/25/2019
Dick - 10/23/2019
0 - 10/22/2019
Please note that due to security concerns and to keep the forums free from malicious activity the forums have reverted to using the same OCC Username and Password as that used for the OCC Website. If you have forgotten your password you can request a reminder from the login page.

Hi Phillip,
Tell Norma I feel her pain and hope it is the last time.
I think a fuel polishing system is a good idea for any widely wandering cruising vessel and a great idea if you are in areas where one is getting fuel from 50g barrels and the like. There is a secondary reason to have clean fuel besides engine performance: your fuel tanks will last a lot longer.
A dual Racor fuel filter system is also wise. Did you happen to notice the vacuum gauge reading when drawing from the clogged filter? Do you check the pressure guage regularly and was it creeping up or catastrophically rose? I would have expected some rough engine running before actually stalling: was that the case or was the stalling abrupt? Usually, (I think), there is sufficient evidence that something is awry that you can switch to the good filter before the engine becomes fuel starved and you are looking at bleeding the engine.
I took a quick look at the Marine 16 Diesel Dipper and I was left with a few questions unanswered and perhaps my quick look missed the answers: I found no track record and do not know when introduced and how many were out there. For “mission critical” systems I do not like doing the R&D for the product and would lean towards 10 years of the product being out there doing its thing and there being a sufficient amount of field reports.
I also wonder at 40-micron filter: that seems a bit course. I also suspect that the filter working when at sea and the fuel sloshing around is a advertising ploy. Any time the tanks are sloshed around the water/sludge/gunk will come loose and settle to the bottom of the tank when at rest. Any system that has access to the bottom of the tank (or at least below the pick-up tube) will then be able to get the bad stuff out when at anchor or at a marina.
Also, it is wise to have two tanks on a voyaging vessel and I suspect that would mean 2 installations of the Dipper with its attendant expense and installation issues.
If you can get to the bottom of your tank, the below might be of interest. It is Alchemy’s fuel “polishing” system that has kept our tanks clean for 70,000+ miles and lots of fuel from questionable sources.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

FUEL POLISHING SUGGESTION                Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
The following was written for a specific boat (a Valiant 42), but variations on the basics below make polishing fuel possible on any vessel. The one challenge is getting to the bottom/low corner of the tank. If one is building new tanks, a fuel polishing pick-up going to the bottom low corner should be considered.
Fuel polishing serves at least 2 functions: good fuel to the engine and, secondarily, to keep accumulated water and yuck (technical term) from attacking the tank itself and shortening a tank’s life. Many owner-designed fuel polishing draws through the pickup tube which leaves the bottom of the tank untouched. I was lucky as Valiant 42s (like Alchemy) with saddle tanks, it is possible to get to the very bottom through the connecting fitting between tanks. It is relatively easy to tap into this connection to draw fuel from below the pickup tube. All other boats must figure a way to get to the bottom of the tank, usually possible, but often demanding some creativity: worth the effort.
Fuel Polishing for Alchemy, V42-128, with saddle tanks
What I like about this system is that it covers both polishing the fuel and getting crud/water and any loose stuff from the tank bottoms below the pick-up tube. It does not, however, get inside the tank and scrape the sides etc., but the extra cleaning suggestion below does a bit of that.
Alchemy’s saddle tanks are great in that they have a nipple on each tank at their lower end. The 2 tanks on each side are connected to each other from these low nipples with a valve in between. I broke into the hose near the lower nipple, attached a “T” and added a valve onto the T with a hose fitting.* I now have access to the fuel from the bottom of each tank. The lower tank is of course the more important as stuff migrates there. I did this both port & starboard. There are 2 tanks on each side of a 42 w/ saddle tanks (4 altogether) right next to each other fore and aft. (there are 2 per side to get them into the locker through the hatch: a nice touch as too many boats seal their tanks into the boat when they put the deck on).
The “polisher”
I then mounted an old Racor filter assembly (if possible, use the same filter as used on the boat) with hoses and a fuel pump on a board with a cigarette lighter attachment for power for the fuel pump. (Remember, you want to draw fuel through the filter, not push.)
The following pertains to my boat: other must attach the polisher assembly to allow them to draw off the bottom. I attach the intake hose to the “T”ed off valve fitting and put the outlet into the deck fill. Open the T valve and you are pumping off the bottom of the tanks. Close off the upper tank with the Valiant built in valve and you are only drawing off the lower tank in the corner where crud/water accumulates.
How often?
We do an hour or two of polishing each side every 2-3 months during the season (or sooner if concerned I have gotten bad fuel). This runs about 17 gal. (1/3rd of the tank capacity) through the filter in each tank which I have been keeping at 10 micron. I take from the bottom and put into the top unless I am emptying a tank for the winter.** We can also pump from drums and guarantee that the fuel from the drums is clean before it gets into the tanks.
Extra tank cleaning
This is for Valiant 42s and can be accomplished by disassembly of the valves etc. at the base of the tanks. Remove the lower nipple and there is a nice, not big, but nice size hole in the tank wall. Take a dowel with rag sections attached (electrical ties or just tied on) and insert and scrape. Continue as needed. Tedious but does get some yuck. And with a bit of a right angle insert you can get right in the corner.
*Something I recommend in V42s is a simple plywood partition protecting the valve/hose assembly at the base of the tanks from lines etc. that may be stored in the locker. These could get caught on the valves/hose and inadvertently pulled damaging these connections.
**The pump also acts to transfer fuel. I usually empty one tank each winter (into the other) to have Alchemy sit higher in the water. I have found that an empty tank will not collect water over a winter in the Med or in the UK.




Hi Dick
Thank you for this - Norma is very happy that you are on her side and she has now vetoed the use of her electric toothbrush so I have to do something else ... dire consequences have been threatened if I do not comply ...

Thank you for that full description of Alchemy's set up. 

My next step before I give up on the Marine 16 option is to talk to them and see if I can get in contact with some purchasers/users.  I share your concern about the fineness of the filter but I can see that a 10 micron filter would be taking out the crud instead of the pre-filter doing this.  I will ask for the reasoning and let you know what they have to say.

There was just one very brief change of engine note about two hours before it cut out.  So it was somewhat sudden.

Your advice, as always, is very much appreciated.

Best regards
Phil

Hi Phillip,
Sounds good, I look forward to your report. Dick
neilm
neilm
New Member (19 reputation)New Member (19 reputation)New Member (19 reputation)New Member (19 reputation)New Member (19 reputation)New Member (19 reputation)New Member (19 reputation)New Member (19 reputation)New Member (19 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 32, Visits: 16
Interesting system
We cannot operate as you do, but can use your principle
We have two tanks integral with our aluminium hull.  Since the tank bottom is the boat bottom, there is a low point at the forward inboard corners.
We installed a deck fill fitting above each, and periodically stick at pipe down into it and suck off the bottom.  We can pump this through a polishing filter if necessary.  First move is to look for water and guk  (an even higher tech word than "yuck") in the fuel.
We can access the tanks for cleaning through an inspection plate but that takes and hour or two.  The deck fills open in seconds
Many boats could retrofit this.
We try to empty one of the tanks each season, and clean out if required.  Sometimes find interesting stuff​
​​
​​​
​​​
Dick
Dick
I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)I'm into this (318 reputation)
Group: Forum Members
Posts: 584, Visits: 1.3K
neilm - 3/26/2020
Interesting system
We cannot operate as you do, but can use your principle
We have two tanks integral with our aluminium hull.  Since the tank bottom is the boat bottom, there is a low point at the forward inboard corners.
We installed a deck fill fitting above each, and periodically stick at pipe down into it and suck off the bottom.  We can pump this through a polishing filter if necessary.  First move is to look for water and guk  (an even higher tech word than "yuck") in the fuel.
We can access the tanks for cleaning through an inspection plate but that takes and hour or two.  The deck fills open in seconds
Many boats could retrofit this.
We try to empty one of the tanks each season, and clean out if required.  Sometimes find interesting stuff



Hi Neil,
Interesting is the operative word: especially if used as a Chinese curse: “May you live in interesting times”.
Sounds like a good system and, you are correct, many boats can retrofit something similar. It also does not put a hole in the bottom of the tank, a practice which I have heard goes against some code/recommendations/regulations although I am unaware of any citation.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

GO

Merge Selected

Merge into selected topic...



Merge into merge target...



Merge into a specific topic ID...




Login

Search