I just listened to Kirsten Neuschäfer’s interview on the OCC news page https://www.oceancruisingclub.org/home/news/2719 in which she talks about using both forestay grooves at the same time for twin head sails. She says that such a configuration might damage the foil and, instead she had her twin sails stitched together. I’m pretty sure many of us fly twin sails simultaneously (one in each groove) and wondered if anyone has suffered foil damage as a consequence?
Simon

+x

 

Simon Currin - 4 Jun 2024

I just listened to Kirsten Neuschäfer’s interview on the OCC news page https://www.oceancruisingclub.org/home/news/2719 in which she talks about using both forestay grooves at the same time for twin head sails. She says that such a configuration might damage the foil and, instead she had her twin sails stitched together. I’m pretty sure many of us fly twin sails simultaneously (one in each groove) and wondered if anyone has suffered foil damage as a consequence?Simon

Hi Simon,
Those of us who are near professional riggers, especially those preparing offshore boats, might ask their riggers the question.
No experience myself, but purely looking at the mechanics of a jib on a foil, one might make the argument that it is not wise to have a sail in each foil slot and pulling in opposite directions. Foils and their bolt rope slot are designed to have the load come directly out of the slot and the load is born by the wall on each side of the slot.
When running with 2 headsails in side-by-side slots the load is going to be born by only one side of the foil slot and at right angles to the expected load direction: not how it was designed to be loaded, I suspect.
Since we are talking about a downwind sail configuration, the loads with be far less, so I suspect that skippers can do so without a problem although damage might occur in an unexpected squall.
For downwind sailing I have run for days offshore with a poled out jib (easily reefed by just rolling in and out) and a mainsail (easily reefed going downwind, but it helps to have slippery mainsail track). This has the helm well balanced and gives me great flexibility to respond to wind changes: more of an issue in the North Atlantic than in the trades of the Pacific.
Random thoughts, My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

We have used two headsails in a two grove foil without problems, a block and halliard was hoisted at the head of the first sail to allow the second to he hoisted independently.  As they were both 140% genoas, they induced less rolling if they were reefed a few rolls to flatten them.  Once rolled, of course, any strain on the foil track is reduced.  As an aside we sailed to windwards for a while with both sails on the same side! However, for our subesequent Atlantic crossing we fitted a second forestay which allowed a Genoa on the outer stay and a 100% jib with fairly high clew on the inner one.  Running, we now boom one out each side and that seems to balance well enough to keep the hydrovane happy.

Thank you both. Great suggestion to put to roll away a bit of the twin headsail to mitigate possible damage to the foil.
Simon

+x

 

Richard.Kingsnorth - 5 Jun 2024

We have used two headsails in a two grove foil without problems, a block and halliard was hoisted at the head of the first sail to allow the second to he hoisted independently.  As they were both 140% genoas, they induced less rolling if they were reefed a few rolls to flatten them.  Once rolled, of course, any strain on the foil track is reduced.  As an aside we sailed to windwards for a while with both sails on the same side! However, for our subesequent Atlantic crossing we fitted a second forestay which allowed a Genoa on the outer stay and a 100% jib with fairly high clew on the inner one.  Running, we now boom one out each side and that seems to balance well enough to keep the hydrovane happy.

+x

 

Simon Currin - 6 Jun 2024

Thank you both. Great suggestion to put to roll away a bit of the twin headsail to mitigate possible damage to the foil.
Simon

+x

 

Richard.Kingsnorth - 5 Jun 2024

We have used two headsails in a two grove foil without problems, a block and halliard was hoisted at the head of the first sail to allow the second to he hoisted independently.  As they were both 140% genoas, they induced less rolling if they were reefed a few rolls to flatten them.  Once rolled, of course, any strain on the foil track is reduced.  As an aside we sailed to windwards for a while with both sails on the same side! However, for our subesequent Atlantic crossing we fitted a second forestay which allowed a Genoa on the outer stay and a 100% jib with fairly high clew on the inner one.  Running, we now boom one out each side and that seems to balance well enough to keep the hydrovane happy.

Yes, Simon, that was a good suggestion of Richards and is something to keep in mind for any foil-to-bolt-rope problem where you want to decrease strain. I recently had some stitching go bad on my bolt-rope strip which I stitched up myself, but worried it might not be up to the strain of going upwind in a breeze. My plan was to take in a couple of rolls of the sail which would relieve any strain just as Richard describes.
I could also see this being effective with a sail rip close to the foil.
My best, Dick
Ps. I would also be interested in what off-shore boat riggers have to say and roller furling manufacturers.

+x

 

Dick - 8 Jun 2024

+x

 

Simon Currin - 6 Jun 2024

Thank you both. Great suggestion to put to roll away a bit of the twin headsail to mitigate possible damage to the foil.
Simon

+x

 

Richard.Kingsnorth - 5 Jun 2024

We have used two headsails in a two grove foil without problems, a block and halliard was hoisted at the head of the first sail to allow the second to he hoisted independently.  As they were both 140% genoas, they induced less rolling if they were reefed a few rolls to flatten them.  Once rolled, of course, any strain on the foil track is reduced.  As an aside we sailed to windwards for a while with both sails on the same side! However, for our subesequent Atlantic crossing we fitted a second forestay which allowed a Genoa on the outer stay and a 100% jib with fairly high clew on the inner one.  Running, we now boom one out each side and that seems to balance well enough to keep the hydrovane happy.

Yes, Simon, that was a good suggestion of Richards and is something to keep in mind for any foil-to-bolt-rope problem where you want to decrease strain. I recently had some stitching go bad on my bolt-rope strip which I stitched up myself, but worried it might not be up to the strain of going upwind in a breeze. My plan was to take in a couple of rolls of the sail which would relieve any strain just as Richard describes.
I could also see this being effective with a sail rip close to the foil.
My best, Dick
Ps. I would also be interested in what off-shore boat riggers have to say and roller furling manufacturers.

Perhaps best to take a couple of wraps as a matter of habit as it is easy to do and does not decrease the sail area appreciably? Dick

+x

 

Simon Currin - 4 Jun 2024

I just listened to Kirsten Neuschäfer’s interview on the OCC news page https://www.oceancruisingclub.org/home/news/2719 in which she talks about using both forestay grooves at the same time for twin head sails. She says that such a configuration might damage the foil and, instead she had her twin sails stitched together. I’m pretty sure many of us fly twin sails simultaneously (one in each groove) and wondered if anyone has suffered foil damage as a consequence?Simon

Hi Simon, my forestay furler and foil are made by Reckmann and last year, I checked with them whether the foil and furler were strong enough for double headsails and the answer was no problem.  I also got a quote from Dolphins sails who make double headsails in separate groves for many Oysters.  Again, they didn’t raise any issues with using both groves in the foil.  I ended up buying a 2nd Genoa for my Code zero furler because I was concerned about potentially having to take the second Genoa down when changing from a downwind to a reach or upwind course.   But one of our members has been using a double headsail setup in his Simbo rig for many years. https://www.rhbell.com/Simbo/simbo-downwind-sailing.html.  Hope that helps.  Cheers Joerg 

Hi all,
Have a look at the Twistle Rig set up for down wind sailing. If you have twin poles and two Genoas of similar size you only need the Twistle fitting. This reduces the roll out of the rig so it is not transmitted through the mast and into the boats motion. It would always be prudent to leave one roll on the foil to alleviate any extra strain on the twin groove foil. We have used the Twistle Rig very successfully over many years. Brian SV Darramy 

Thanks all for your comments. I guess Kirsten’s rigging advisors were being cautious because a non-stop, competitive circumnavigation is likely to impose more stress on the foil grooves than an average cruiser. Also, it enabled her to claim the 2 sewn together yankees as 1 sail rather than 2 - the race limits the number of sails carried. Flying both with one turn on the furler sounds like a good compromise for us cruisers.

Simon

+x

 

bwallace - 11 Jun 2024

Hi all,
Have a look at the Twistle Rig set up for down wind sailing. If you have twin poles and two Genoas of similar size you only need the Twistle fitting. This reduces the roll out of the rig so it is not transmitted through the mast and into the boats motion. It would always be prudent to leave one roll on the foil to alleviate any extra strain on the twin groove foil. We have used the Twistle Rig very successfully over many years. Brian SV Darramy