My intent is to share this in the appropriate "Best Place." If I goofed, please move it, or show men how to move it. If you can add to this knowledge, or correct any errors, please do.

Thanks,

Dave on ALEGRIA
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Good advice to save.

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[font=inherit]‎[/font]Ron Hames[font=inherit]‎[/font] to Seven Seas Cruising Association SSCA
[font=inherit][color=rgb(144, 148, 156)][font=inherit]Yesterday at 1:08 PM[/font][/color][/font]
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this is from coastal climate control in maryland. i have no interest in the company except to say they are great.
“t’s starting to get crazy again on our help line, like it seems to every year about this time. I guess that there’s a big increase in numbers of boats swanning around down south now that it’s holiday season and it’s getting nippy up north. Lucky them!

But there will inevitably be the unfortunate few cruisers that will soon be heading down a long and frustrating path trying to fix a malfunctioning refrigerator or freezer. So in an effort to minimize the pain, and to hopefully make my life easier, I’m re-issuing some advice I gave a few years back on the subject.
This, unfortunately, is even more relevant today since the advent of those flashy electronic refrigerant gauge sets with multiple digital screens that seem to confuse more than enlighten.
Our office here spends way too much time on the phone and in e-mails helping customers correct mistakes made by mostly well intentioned but misinformed and inexperienced technicians. Too often it seems that adding refrigerant has been a Hail Mary move, made after diagnosis was unsuccessful, and done in an effort to show the customer that at least something had been done. And that's where all the problems start ....
A capillary tube (cap tube) refrigeration system contains a very precise amount of refrigerant. There is no reservoir or holding tank for excess refrigerant, and over-charging will inevitably result in poor performance. The system will be either perfectly charged, or over-charged, or under-charged, and once the equilibrium has been upset on a perfectly charged system, it may take quite some time and effort to return it to its perfectly charged state. This is true also of the majority of air conditioners installed on small/medium size boats, as these are also cap tube systems.
So you have a problem with your cap tube system and you have someone purporting to be a marine refrigeration specialist come take a look at it. But before letting anyone loose in your bilges and cockpit locker, you'd best consider referring to the Rules of Engagement below.
referee rule book dreamstime m 23562317 480x637
Rule No. 1 – Just because someone comes brandishing a set of refrigeration gauges and what seems like a highfalutin qualification in marine refrigeration and air conditioning from a marine standards organization doesn't guarantee that they actually know what they are doing.
Rule No. 2 – Never let any such technician referenced in Rule 1 above connect refrigerant gauges to your system without him/her giving you a detailed description of what he/she thinks the problem may be and why they feel the need to attach said gauges. Hint: If the problem is that the compressor is not coming on, there is no need to attach gauges.
Rule No. 3 – Never, ever, let a technician add refrigerant to your system without explaining exactly why he/she thinks this to be absolutely necessary.
Rule No. 4 – Ask the technician what method he intends to use to gauge the level of refrigerant in your cap tube system. If they say weight and/or pressures, tell them to instead check the frost-line, as described here: Frigoboat R134a Charge Guidelines
Rule No. 5 – If the technician thinks your system needs refrigerant, then that implies there is a leak. No point in putting more gas in a system that has a hole in it. Tell your tech to find and fix the hole first, then add refrigerant. Think of a car tire – if it's punctured, why keep pumping it up without fixing the problem first.
Rule No. 6 – Have the technician agree that if it later transpires that he/she had added refrigerant to the system unnecessarily resulting in an overcharged system, said technician will return and correct the refrigerant charge at no additional cost to you, no matter how many repeat visits this entails.
Rule No. 7 – Never, ever, ever-ever, let anyone (including yourselves dear boat owners) inject refrigerant laced with additives like leak detecting fluid, "conditioner", extra oil, etc., into your cap tube system. I know those products look mighty attractive on the shelf at Pep Boys, but the only thing allowed into your system is pure unadulterated refrigerant R134a.
Rule No. 8 – The telephone rule. The use of a cell phone by a technician to call the refrigeration system manufacturer for guidance can be either a good thing or a not so good thing. If the call is made early in the service visit because the technician is not sure what is going on, and before he/she has messed with anything, then this can be considered to be a good thing. Disappointing yes, but at least the tech is honest! If the call is made in desperation after all else has failed and the system has by then been flooded with excess refrigerant, then this is a very bad thing.
So there you have some Rules of Engagement that may help you avoid turning a simple problem into a nightmare. Cap tube systems are inherently very simple, but technicians need to think twice before "shooting it up with Freon.


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Perfect position - thanks Dave!

I'll add two cents to this - having used Coastal Climate Control myself. They were the only folk I've yet come across that really thought through the problem and diagnosed a series of loose electrical connections - nothing to do with freon. The tech also advised on spares to carry for remote area preparation. Fridge and Freezer still working - breaking the previous record already. I'm a happy camper!

Bill Balme

I just came across this build-it-yourself site. Cruise RO are proponents of building your own refrigeration, watermaking and power generating equipment. They seems to have a lot of useful information on their website. http://www.cruiserowaterandpower.com/

Vice Commodore, OCC 

Now that we are cruising in warm water for the next few years I have been investigating how we might make our freezer more efficient. We have 75mm foam insulation around a freezer box built into our galley. It was fine in cooler waters but our compressor is working hard to keep it cold in the tropics. The only realistic way of improving insulation is to line the compartment.

Has anyone done this using retrofit Panasonic
U-Vacua™ Vacuum Insulation Panels? The smallest panel I can find is 12”x15” and a 1” thick panel appears to have phenomenal ‘u’ values.

It would be great to hear from anyone who has tried to retrofit similar panels and in particular, was it worth it and how they did it?
Simon

+x

 

Simon Currin - 12 Sep 2023

Now that we are cruising in warm water for the next few years I have been investigating how we might make our freezer more efficient. We have 75mm foam insulation around a freezer box built into our galley. It was fine in cooler waters but our compressor is working hard to keep it cold in the tropics. The only realistic way of improving insulation is to line the compartment.Has anyone done this using retrofit PanasonicU-Vacua™ Vacuum Insulation Panels? The smallest panel I can find is 12”x15” and a 1” thick panel appears to have phenomenal ‘u’ values. It would be great to hear from anyone who has tried to retrofit similar panels and in particular, was it worth it and how they did it?Simon

Hi Simon,
The following was written to a Valiant 42 group, but has all that is necessary information. I am fortunate to have quire a large freezer. We still us this (15+ yrs or more) even though we have been in cold waters lately.
Come back with questions/comments etc.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Dear List,                            last edited, 09-’23
I have a V42 reefer/freezer box set up which I have always considered one of the low points in Valiant’s design history. In other words the design is only adequate in respect to Valiant’s usually superb design decisions. I hated the initial set-up for live-aboard at-anchor use and when I yanked out the holding plate found a cavernous space. We still use this space as a freezer and installed the evaporator plates high on the fore & aft sides. We knew we lost lots of heat through the bottom into the quite warm water we were cruising in at that time, so we started adding layers of insulation (to the freezer) on the bottom and sides (up 12 inches or so to the bottom of the evaporator plates). We have used 1. closed cell alum faced 3/4 inch hard-board insulation (from Home Depot), 2. Armourflex (now perhaps K-Flex), a black closed cell flexible pad easily cut and worked in ½ and ¾ inch thicknesses, 3. Reflectix, insulation like bubble wrap with alum foil on both sides, and 4. Thin very tough plastic (made for flexible cutting board uses).
The hard board is the first layer on the bottom & sides, (on the flat bottom surfaces- frig & freezer- there are dry deck- nipped somewhat thinner- to keep frozen items away from standing water/spills) cut in multiple pieces to fit the space, duct tape edges to protect the foam, and butted together (not connected). The hard board is the bottom layer, then a thick strip of Armourflex, then the side hardboards. This establishes a stepped overlap junction to help insulation.) Then there are 3 long strips of Armourflex cut to butt into the sides and go up as high as possible on the outboard side and starting at the bottom of the removable dividing insert between frig & freezer in my V42-128 design.
Then I taped together the thin (1/32 inch) cutting board plastic sheets to form fit the bottom and protect the Armouflex foam from abrasion from stored frozen items.
Then I made a form fitted Reflectix “bin” (kind-of like a bucket) to go low down and held together with duct tape as a last insulating item and to catch spills/drips.
Finally, I took 2 Reflectix sheets and taped the edges together with duct tape and this “lid” fits perfectly (and slides into) a groove made by the top of the evaporator plates and covers the whole top of the freezer (just under the lid) and is flexible enough to lift for access to frozen goods when the hard top is opened. The dividing insert (freezer from frig) does not have beefed up insulation as the cold will just migrate to the frig (eg not lost). There are no spillover holes in the insert (filled in when I went to 2 separate independent cooling units) to cut down on moisture getting into the freezer and onto the plates.
We have used this configuration for almost 2 decades. We lost a fair amount of space with this insulation in a design which is luckily actually enormous (after removal of the huge cold plate) for a 40-foot boat, so we rarely miss the lost space. We use our freezer a lot.
Another worthy addition was to have a “condensation” pad. Ours was a sheet of ¾ inch Armouflex which was cut to fit the top counter over the frig and freezer. This stopped completely the occasional condensation on the counter tops on hot humid days, added to the insulation of the refrigerated areas and was less of a pain than we thought it would be: easily folded to one side or the other or just put aside when cooking.
During hot humid times we defrost the evaporator plates every 3-4 weeks as needed, rarely more than 6 weeks even in cooler drier wx. This helps efficiency a great deal (Turn off units for 4-8 hrs depending allowing for ice to lose adhesion and be quickly scraped off. Items do not unfreeze if stored in bags and covered by blankets.) When defrosting all insulation mentioned comes out but rarely needs any attention and mold etc. has not been a problem.
We also added more insulation (spray in expanding foam) from the outside, in part to deal with mold that occurred on the settee cushions near the freezer, but that is another story.
I considered adding more permanent inside insulation such as being discussed but rejected all ideas I came up with as not being any better than what I had or not being easily removable for cleaning. The ABS plastic reported sounds promising, but I would still worry about moisture migration behind and around fixed panels providing a playground for mold, dirt, meat/chicken juice spills etc over the years.
The above insulation made an enormous difference when we were in warm water/hot climate. My memory is that freezer duty went from 60-70% down to 40-45% or better (in tropics water). It was hard to tell as the above evolved over a couple of years. In these cold waters I am in now freezer duty is about 25% .
My best to all, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy, V42-128

+x

 

Dick - 12 Sep 2023

+x

 

Simon Currin - 12 Sep 2023

Now that we are cruising in warm water for the next few years I have been investigating how we might make our freezer more efficient. We have 75mm foam insulation around a freezer box built into our galley. It was fine in cooler waters but our compressor is working hard to keep it cold in the tropics. The only realistic way of improving insulation is to line the compartment.Has anyone done this using retrofit PanasonicU-Vacua™ Vacuum Insulation Panels? The smallest panel I can find is 12”x15” and a 1” thick panel appears to have phenomenal ‘u’ values. It would be great to hear from anyone who has tried to retrofit similar panels and in particular, was it worth it and how they did it?Simon

Hi Simon,
The following was written to a Valiant 42 group, but has all that is necessary information. I am fortunate to have quire a large freezer. We still us this (15+ yrs or more) even though we have been in cold waters lately.
Come back with questions/comments etc.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Dear List,                            last edited, 09-’23
I have a V42 reefer/freezer box set up which I have always considered one of the low points in Valiant’s design history. In other words the design is only adequate in respect to Valiant’s usually superb design decisions. I hated the initial set-up for live-aboard at-anchor use and when I yanked out the holding plate found a cavernous space. We still use this space as a freezer and installed the evaporator plates high on the fore & aft sides. We knew we lost lots of heat through the bottom into the quite warm water we were cruising in at that time, so we started adding layers of insulation (to the freezer) on the bottom and sides (up 12 inches or so to the bottom of the evaporator plates). We have used 1. closed cell alum faced 3/4 inch hard-board insulation (from Home Depot), 2. Armourflex (now perhaps K-Flex), a black closed cell flexible pad easily cut and worked in ½ and ¾ inch thicknesses, 3. Reflectix, insulation like bubble wrap with alum foil on both sides, and 4. Thin very tough plastic (made for flexible cutting board uses).
The hard board is the first layer on the bottom & sides, (on the flat bottom surfaces- frig & freezer- there are dry deck- nipped somewhat thinner- to keep frozen items away from standing water/spills) cut in multiple pieces to fit the space, duct tape edges to protect the foam, and butted together (not connected). The hard board is the bottom layer, then a thick strip of Armourflex, then the side hardboards. This establishes a stepped overlap junction to help insulation.) Then there are 3 long strips of Armourflex cut to butt into the sides and go up as high as possible on the outboard side and starting at the bottom of the removable dividing insert between frig & freezer in my V42-128 design.
Then I taped together the thin (1/32 inch) cutting board plastic sheets to form fit the bottom and protect the Armouflex foam from abrasion from stored frozen items.
Then I made a form fitted Reflectix “bin” (kind-of like a bucket) to go low down and held together with duct tape as a last insulating item and to catch spills/drips.
Finally, I took 2 Reflectix sheets and taped the edges together with duct tape and this “lid” fits perfectly (and slides into) a groove made by the top of the evaporator plates and covers the whole top of the freezer (just under the lid) and is flexible enough to lift for access to frozen goods when the hard top is opened. The dividing insert (freezer from frig) does not have beefed up insulation as the cold will just migrate to the frig (eg not lost). There are no spillover holes in the insert (filled in when I went to 2 separate independent cooling units) to cut down on moisture getting into the freezer and onto the plates.
We have used this configuration for almost 2 decades. We lost a fair amount of space with this insulation in a design which is luckily actually enormous (after removal of the huge cold plate) for a 40-foot boat, so we rarely miss the lost space. We use our freezer a lot.
Another worthy addition was to have a “condensation” pad. Ours was a sheet of ¾ inch Armouflex which was cut to fit the top counter over the frig and freezer. This stopped completely the occasional condensation on the counter tops on hot humid days, added to the insulation of the refrigerated areas and was less of a pain than we thought it would be: easily folded to one side or the other or just put aside when cooking.
During hot humid times we defrost the evaporator plates every 3-4 weeks as needed, rarely more than 6 weeks even in cooler drier wx. This helps efficiency a great deal (Turn off units for 4-8 hrs depending allowing for ice to lose adhesion and be quickly scraped off. Items do not unfreeze if stored in bags and covered by blankets.) When defrosting all insulation mentioned comes out but rarely needs any attention and mold etc. has not been a problem.
We also added more insulation (spray in expanding foam) from the outside, in part to deal with mold that occurred on the settee cushions near the freezer, but that is another story.
I considered adding more permanent inside insulation such as being discussed but rejected all ideas I came up with as not being any better than what I had or not being easily removable for cleaning. The ABS plastic reported sounds promising, but I would still worry about moisture migration behind and around fixed panels providing a playground for mold, dirt, meat/chicken juice spills etc over the years.
The above insulation made an enormous difference when we were in warm water/hot climate. My memory is that freezer duty went from 60-70% down to 40-45% or better (in tropics water). It was hard to tell as the above evolved over a couple of years. In these cold waters I am in now freezer duty is about 25% .
My best to all, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy, V42-128

Hi Simon,
Ps.
It has been a long while since I have heard mention of vacuum panels, which may say something about them: or not. I looked at them hard when I did the previous post’s work and decided that they would not fit well, were quite expensive and I worried about random reports of their losing their vacuum and becoming essentially useless. They seemed ideal for a custom job where they could be fitted into “slots” where they could be easily replaced if they lost their vacuum (not sure how one would actually know). I do not know of any boat that has gone that way: which again may or may not say something. I do think if they were making a big difference, the many many boats that are poorly insulated in their frig would have been making noise about them
Random thoughts,Dick

Thanks Dick,
Fortunately they are not so expensive now.
Simon

+x

 

Dick - 12 Sep 2023

+x

 

Dick - 12 Sep 2023

+x

 

Simon Currin - 12 Sep 2023

Now that we are cruising in warm water for the next few years I have been investigating how we might make our freezer more efficient. We have 75mm foam insulation around a freezer box built into our galley. It was fine in cooler waters but our compressor is working hard to keep it cold in the tropics. The only realistic way of improving insulation is to line the compartment.Has anyone done this using retrofit PanasonicU-Vacua™ Vacuum Insulation Panels? The smallest panel I can find is 12”x15” and a 1” thick panel appears to have phenomenal ‘u’ values. It would be great to hear from anyone who has tried to retrofit similar panels and in particular, was it worth it and how they did it?Simon

Hi Simon,
The following was written to a Valiant 42 group, but has all that is necessary information. I am fortunate to have quire a large freezer. We still us this (15+ yrs or more) even though we have been in cold waters lately.
Come back with questions/comments etc.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Dear List,                            last edited, 09-’23
I have a V42 reefer/freezer box set up which I have always considered one of the low points in Valiant’s design history. In other words the design is only adequate in respect to Valiant’s usually superb design decisions. I hated the initial set-up for live-aboard at-anchor use and when I yanked out the holding plate found a cavernous space. We still use this space as a freezer and installed the evaporator plates high on the fore & aft sides. We knew we lost lots of heat through the bottom into the quite warm water we were cruising in at that time, so we started adding layers of insulation (to the freezer) on the bottom and sides (up 12 inches or so to the bottom of the evaporator plates). We have used 1. closed cell alum faced 3/4 inch hard-board insulation (from Home Depot), 2. Armourflex (now perhaps K-Flex), a black closed cell flexible pad easily cut and worked in ½ and ¾ inch thicknesses, 3. Reflectix, insulation like bubble wrap with alum foil on both sides, and 4. Thin very tough plastic (made for flexible cutting board uses).
The hard board is the first layer on the bottom & sides, (on the flat bottom surfaces- frig & freezer- there are dry deck- nipped somewhat thinner- to keep frozen items away from standing water/spills) cut in multiple pieces to fit the space, duct tape edges to protect the foam, and butted together (not connected). The hard board is the bottom layer, then a thick strip of Armourflex, then the side hardboards. This establishes a stepped overlap junction to help insulation.) Then there are 3 long strips of Armourflex cut to butt into the sides and go up as high as possible on the outboard side and starting at the bottom of the removable dividing insert between frig & freezer in my V42-128 design.
Then I taped together the thin (1/32 inch) cutting board plastic sheets to form fit the bottom and protect the Armouflex foam from abrasion from stored frozen items.
Then I made a form fitted Reflectix “bin” (kind-of like a bucket) to go low down and held together with duct tape as a last insulating item and to catch spills/drips.
Finally, I took 2 Reflectix sheets and taped the edges together with duct tape and this “lid” fits perfectly (and slides into) a groove made by the top of the evaporator plates and covers the whole top of the freezer (just under the lid) and is flexible enough to lift for access to frozen goods when the hard top is opened. The dividing insert (freezer from frig) does not have beefed up insulation as the cold will just migrate to the frig (eg not lost). There are no spillover holes in the insert (filled in when I went to 2 separate independent cooling units) to cut down on moisture getting into the freezer and onto the plates.
We have used this configuration for almost 2 decades. We lost a fair amount of space with this insulation in a design which is luckily actually enormous (after removal of the huge cold plate) for a 40-foot boat, so we rarely miss the lost space. We use our freezer a lot.
Another worthy addition was to have a “condensation” pad. Ours was a sheet of ¾ inch Armouflex which was cut to fit the top counter over the frig and freezer. This stopped completely the occasional condensation on the counter tops on hot humid days, added to the insulation of the refrigerated areas and was less of a pain than we thought it would be: easily folded to one side or the other or just put aside when cooking.
During hot humid times we defrost the evaporator plates every 3-4 weeks as needed, rarely more than 6 weeks even in cooler drier wx. This helps efficiency a great deal (Turn off units for 4-8 hrs depending allowing for ice to lose adhesion and be quickly scraped off. Items do not unfreeze if stored in bags and covered by blankets.) When defrosting all insulation mentioned comes out but rarely needs any attention and mold etc. has not been a problem.
We also added more insulation (spray in expanding foam) from the outside, in part to deal with mold that occurred on the settee cushions near the freezer, but that is another story.
I considered adding more permanent inside insulation such as being discussed but rejected all ideas I came up with as not being any better than what I had or not being easily removable for cleaning. The ABS plastic reported sounds promising, but I would still worry about moisture migration behind and around fixed panels providing a playground for mold, dirt, meat/chicken juice spills etc over the years.
The above insulation made an enormous difference when we were in warm water/hot climate. My memory is that freezer duty went from 60-70% down to 40-45% or better (in tropics water). It was hard to tell as the above evolved over a couple of years. In these cold waters I am in now freezer duty is about 25% .
My best to all, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy, V42-128

Hi Simon,
Ps.
It has been a long while since I have heard mention of vacuum panels, which may say something about them: or not. I looked at them hard when I did the previous post’s work and decided that they would not fit well, were quite expensive and I worried about random reports of their losing their vacuum and becoming essentially useless. They seemed ideal for a custom job where they could be fitted into “slots” where they could be easily replaced if they lost their vacuum (not sure how one would actually know). I do not know of any boat that has gone that way: which again may or may not say something. I do think if they were making a big difference, the many many boats that are poorly insulated in their frig would have been making noise about them
Random thoughts,Dick

+x

 

Simon Currin - 13 Sep 2023

Thanks Dick,
Fortunately they are not so expensive now.
Simon

+x

 

Dick - 12 Sep 2023

+x

 

Dick - 12 Sep 2023

+x

 

Simon Currin - 12 Sep 2023

Now that we are cruising in warm water for the next few years I have been investigating how we might make our freezer more efficient. We have 75mm foam insulation around a freezer box built into our galley. It was fine in cooler waters but our compressor is working hard to keep it cold in the tropics. The only realistic way of improving insulation is to line the compartment.Has anyone done this using retrofit PanasonicU-Vacua™ Vacuum Insulation Panels? The smallest panel I can find is 12”x15” and a 1” thick panel appears to have phenomenal ‘u’ values. It would be great to hear from anyone who has tried to retrofit similar panels and in particular, was it worth it and how they did it?Simon

Hi Simon,
The following was written to a Valiant 42 group, but has all that is necessary information. I am fortunate to have quire a large freezer. We still us this (15+ yrs or more) even though we have been in cold waters lately.
Come back with questions/comments etc.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Dear List,                            last edited, 09-’23
I have a V42 reefer/freezer box set up which I have always considered one of the low points in Valiant’s design history. In other words the design is only adequate in respect to Valiant’s usually superb design decisions. I hated the initial set-up for live-aboard at-anchor use and when I yanked out the holding plate found a cavernous space. We still use this space as a freezer and installed the evaporator plates high on the fore & aft sides. We knew we lost lots of heat through the bottom into the quite warm water we were cruising in at that time, so we started adding layers of insulation (to the freezer) on the bottom and sides (up 12 inches or so to the bottom of the evaporator plates). We have used 1. closed cell alum faced 3/4 inch hard-board insulation (from Home Depot), 2. Armourflex (now perhaps K-Flex), a black closed cell flexible pad easily cut and worked in ½ and ¾ inch thicknesses, 3. Reflectix, insulation like bubble wrap with alum foil on both sides, and 4. Thin very tough plastic (made for flexible cutting board uses).
The hard board is the first layer on the bottom & sides, (on the flat bottom surfaces- frig & freezer- there are dry deck- nipped somewhat thinner- to keep frozen items away from standing water/spills) cut in multiple pieces to fit the space, duct tape edges to protect the foam, and butted together (not connected). The hard board is the bottom layer, then a thick strip of Armourflex, then the side hardboards. This establishes a stepped overlap junction to help insulation.) Then there are 3 long strips of Armourflex cut to butt into the sides and go up as high as possible on the outboard side and starting at the bottom of the removable dividing insert between frig & freezer in my V42-128 design.
Then I taped together the thin (1/32 inch) cutting board plastic sheets to form fit the bottom and protect the Armouflex foam from abrasion from stored frozen items.
Then I made a form fitted Reflectix “bin” (kind-of like a bucket) to go low down and held together with duct tape as a last insulating item and to catch spills/drips.
Finally, I took 2 Reflectix sheets and taped the edges together with duct tape and this “lid” fits perfectly (and slides into) a groove made by the top of the evaporator plates and covers the whole top of the freezer (just under the lid) and is flexible enough to lift for access to frozen goods when the hard top is opened. The dividing insert (freezer from frig) does not have beefed up insulation as the cold will just migrate to the frig (eg not lost). There are no spillover holes in the insert (filled in when I went to 2 separate independent cooling units) to cut down on moisture getting into the freezer and onto the plates.
We have used this configuration for almost 2 decades. We lost a fair amount of space with this insulation in a design which is luckily actually enormous (after removal of the huge cold plate) for a 40-foot boat, so we rarely miss the lost space. We use our freezer a lot.
Another worthy addition was to have a “condensation” pad. Ours was a sheet of ¾ inch Armouflex which was cut to fit the top counter over the frig and freezer. This stopped completely the occasional condensation on the counter tops on hot humid days, added to the insulation of the refrigerated areas and was less of a pain than we thought it would be: easily folded to one side or the other or just put aside when cooking.
During hot humid times we defrost the evaporator plates every 3-4 weeks as needed, rarely more than 6 weeks even in cooler drier wx. This helps efficiency a great deal (Turn off units for 4-8 hrs depending allowing for ice to lose adhesion and be quickly scraped off. Items do not unfreeze if stored in bags and covered by blankets.) When defrosting all insulation mentioned comes out but rarely needs any attention and mold etc. has not been a problem.
We also added more insulation (spray in expanding foam) from the outside, in part to deal with mold that occurred on the settee cushions near the freezer, but that is another story.
I considered adding more permanent inside insulation such as being discussed but rejected all ideas I came up with as not being any better than what I had or not being easily removable for cleaning. The ABS plastic reported sounds promising, but I would still worry about moisture migration behind and around fixed panels providing a playground for mold, dirt, meat/chicken juice spills etc over the years.
The above insulation made an enormous difference when we were in warm water/hot climate. My memory is that freezer duty went from 60-70% down to 40-45% or better (in tropics water). It was hard to tell as the above evolved over a couple of years. In these cold waters I am in now freezer duty is about 25% .
My best to all, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy, V42-128

Hi Simon,
Ps.
It has been a long while since I have heard mention of vacuum panels, which may say something about them: or not. I looked at them hard when I did the previous post’s work and decided that they would not fit well, were quite expensive and I worried about random reports of their losing their vacuum and becoming essentially useless. They seemed ideal for a custom job where they could be fitted into “slots” where they could be easily replaced if they lost their vacuum (not sure how one would actually know). I do not know of any boat that has gone that way: which again may or may not say something. I do think if they were making a big difference, the many many boats that are poorly insulated in their frig would have been making noise about them
Random thoughts,Dick

S, Did you see the previous post where I describe what we actually did? D

Dick,
Yes and sorry I didn’t acknowledge. I hadn’t heard of Armourflex so very helpful. We are keen not to lose too much internal volume as we will have 4 on board for the Pacific and want to wander off piste a bit along the way. So no re-provisioning stops. Hence the desire for something very thin. External access is extremely difficult as it’s built in. I’ll let you know what we end up doing.
Simon

+x

 

Dick - 13 Sep 2023

+x

 

Simon Currin - 13 Sep 2023

Thanks Dick,
Fortunately they are not so expensive now.
Simon

+x

 

Dick - 12 Sep 2023

+x

 

Dick - 12 Sep 2023

+x

 

Simon Currin - 12 Sep 2023

Now that we are cruising in warm water for the next few years I have been investigating how we might make our freezer more efficient. We have 75mm foam insulation around a freezer box built into our galley. It was fine in cooler waters but our compressor is working hard to keep it cold in the tropics. The only realistic way of improving insulation is to line the compartment.Has anyone done this using retrofit PanasonicU-Vacua™ Vacuum Insulation Panels? The smallest panel I can find is 12”x15” and a 1” thick panel appears to have phenomenal ‘u’ values. It would be great to hear from anyone who has tried to retrofit similar panels and in particular, was it worth it and how they did it?Simon

Hi Simon,
The following was written to a Valiant 42 group, but has all that is necessary information. I am fortunate to have quire a large freezer. We still us this (15+ yrs or more) even though we have been in cold waters lately.
Come back with questions/comments etc.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Dear List,                            last edited, 09-’23
I have a V42 reefer/freezer box set up which I have always considered one of the low points in Valiant’s design history. In other words the design is only adequate in respect to Valiant’s usually superb design decisions. I hated the initial set-up for live-aboard at-anchor use and when I yanked out the holding plate found a cavernous space. We still use this space as a freezer and installed the evaporator plates high on the fore & aft sides. We knew we lost lots of heat through the bottom into the quite warm water we were cruising in at that time, so we started adding layers of insulation (to the freezer) on the bottom and sides (up 12 inches or so to the bottom of the evaporator plates). We have used 1. closed cell alum faced 3/4 inch hard-board insulation (from Home Depot), 2. Armourflex (now perhaps K-Flex), a black closed cell flexible pad easily cut and worked in ½ and ¾ inch thicknesses, 3. Reflectix, insulation like bubble wrap with alum foil on both sides, and 4. Thin very tough plastic (made for flexible cutting board uses).
The hard board is the first layer on the bottom & sides, (on the flat bottom surfaces- frig & freezer- there are dry deck- nipped somewhat thinner- to keep frozen items away from standing water/spills) cut in multiple pieces to fit the space, duct tape edges to protect the foam, and butted together (not connected). The hard board is the bottom layer, then a thick strip of Armourflex, then the side hardboards. This establishes a stepped overlap junction to help insulation.) Then there are 3 long strips of Armourflex cut to butt into the sides and go up as high as possible on the outboard side and starting at the bottom of the removable dividing insert between frig & freezer in my V42-128 design.
Then I taped together the thin (1/32 inch) cutting board plastic sheets to form fit the bottom and protect the Armouflex foam from abrasion from stored frozen items.
Then I made a form fitted Reflectix “bin” (kind-of like a bucket) to go low down and held together with duct tape as a last insulating item and to catch spills/drips.
Finally, I took 2 Reflectix sheets and taped the edges together with duct tape and this “lid” fits perfectly (and slides into) a groove made by the top of the evaporator plates and covers the whole top of the freezer (just under the lid) and is flexible enough to lift for access to frozen goods when the hard top is opened. The dividing insert (freezer from frig) does not have beefed up insulation as the cold will just migrate to the frig (eg not lost). There are no spillover holes in the insert (filled in when I went to 2 separate independent cooling units) to cut down on moisture getting into the freezer and onto the plates.
We have used this configuration for almost 2 decades. We lost a fair amount of space with this insulation in a design which is luckily actually enormous (after removal of the huge cold plate) for a 40-foot boat, so we rarely miss the lost space. We use our freezer a lot.
Another worthy addition was to have a “condensation” pad. Ours was a sheet of ¾ inch Armouflex which was cut to fit the top counter over the frig and freezer. This stopped completely the occasional condensation on the counter tops on hot humid days, added to the insulation of the refrigerated areas and was less of a pain than we thought it would be: easily folded to one side or the other or just put aside when cooking.
During hot humid times we defrost the evaporator plates every 3-4 weeks as needed, rarely more than 6 weeks even in cooler drier wx. This helps efficiency a great deal (Turn off units for 4-8 hrs depending allowing for ice to lose adhesion and be quickly scraped off. Items do not unfreeze if stored in bags and covered by blankets.) When defrosting all insulation mentioned comes out but rarely needs any attention and mold etc. has not been a problem.
We also added more insulation (spray in expanding foam) from the outside, in part to deal with mold that occurred on the settee cushions near the freezer, but that is another story.
I considered adding more permanent inside insulation such as being discussed but rejected all ideas I came up with as not being any better than what I had or not being easily removable for cleaning. The ABS plastic reported sounds promising, but I would still worry about moisture migration behind and around fixed panels providing a playground for mold, dirt, meat/chicken juice spills etc over the years.
The above insulation made an enormous difference when we were in warm water/hot climate. My memory is that freezer duty went from 60-70% down to 40-45% or better (in tropics water). It was hard to tell as the above evolved over a couple of years. In these cold waters I am in now freezer duty is about 25% .
My best to all, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy, V42-128

Hi Simon,
Ps.
It has been a long while since I have heard mention of vacuum panels, which may say something about them: or not. I looked at them hard when I did the previous post’s work and decided that they would not fit well, were quite expensive and I worried about random reports of their losing their vacuum and becoming essentially useless. They seemed ideal for a custom job where they could be fitted into “slots” where they could be easily replaced if they lost their vacuum (not sure how one would actually know). I do not know of any boat that has gone that way: which again may or may not say something. I do think if they were making a big difference, the many many boats that are poorly insulated in their frig would have been making noise about them
Random thoughts,Dick

S, Did you see the previous post where I describe what we actually did? D

+x

 

Simon Currin - 13 Sep 2023

Dick,
Yes and sorry I didn’t acknowledge. I hadn’t heard of Armourflex so very helpful. We are keen not to lose too much internal volume as we will have 4 on board for the Pacific and want to wander off piste a bit along the way. So no re-provisioning stops. Hence the desire for something very thin. External access is extremely difficult as it’s built in. I’ll let you know what we end up doing.
Simon

+x

 

Dick - 13 Sep 2023

+x

 

Simon Currin - 13 Sep 2023

Thanks Dick,
Fortunately they are not so expensive now.
Simon

+x

 

Dick - 12 Sep 2023

+x

 

Dick - 12 Sep 2023

+x

 

Simon Currin - 12 Sep 2023

Now that we are cruising in warm water for the next few years I have been investigating how we might make our freezer more efficient. We have 75mm foam insulation around a freezer box built into our galley. It was fine in cooler waters but our compressor is working hard to keep it cold in the tropics. The only realistic way of improving insulation is to line the compartment.Has anyone done this using retrofit PanasonicU-Vacua™ Vacuum Insulation Panels? The smallest panel I can find is 12”x15” and a 1” thick panel appears to have phenomenal ‘u’ values. It would be great to hear from anyone who has tried to retrofit similar panels and in particular, was it worth it and how they did it?Simon

Hi Simon,
The following was written to a Valiant 42 group, but has all that is necessary information. I am fortunate to have quire a large freezer. We still us this (15+ yrs or more) even though we have been in cold waters lately.
Come back with questions/comments etc.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Dear List,                            last edited, 09-’23
I have a V42 reefer/freezer box set up which I have always considered one of the low points in Valiant’s design history. In other words the design is only adequate in respect to Valiant’s usually superb design decisions. I hated the initial set-up for live-aboard at-anchor use and when I yanked out the holding plate found a cavernous space. We still use this space as a freezer and installed the evaporator plates high on the fore & aft sides. We knew we lost lots of heat through the bottom into the quite warm water we were cruising in at that time, so we started adding layers of insulation (to the freezer) on the bottom and sides (up 12 inches or so to the bottom of the evaporator plates). We have used 1. closed cell alum faced 3/4 inch hard-board insulation (from Home Depot), 2. Armourflex (now perhaps K-Flex), a black closed cell flexible pad easily cut and worked in ½ and ¾ inch thicknesses, 3. Reflectix, insulation like bubble wrap with alum foil on both sides, and 4. Thin very tough plastic (made for flexible cutting board uses).
The hard board is the first layer on the bottom & sides, (on the flat bottom surfaces- frig & freezer- there are dry deck- nipped somewhat thinner- to keep frozen items away from standing water/spills) cut in multiple pieces to fit the space, duct tape edges to protect the foam, and butted together (not connected). The hard board is the bottom layer, then a thick strip of Armourflex, then the side hardboards. This establishes a stepped overlap junction to help insulation.) Then there are 3 long strips of Armourflex cut to butt into the sides and go up as high as possible on the outboard side and starting at the bottom of the removable dividing insert between frig & freezer in my V42-128 design.
Then I taped together the thin (1/32 inch) cutting board plastic sheets to form fit the bottom and protect the Armouflex foam from abrasion from stored frozen items.
Then I made a form fitted Reflectix “bin” (kind-of like a bucket) to go low down and held together with duct tape as a last insulating item and to catch spills/drips.
Finally, I took 2 Reflectix sheets and taped the edges together with duct tape and this “lid” fits perfectly (and slides into) a groove made by the top of the evaporator plates and covers the whole top of the freezer (just under the lid) and is flexible enough to lift for access to frozen goods when the hard top is opened. The dividing insert (freezer from frig) does not have beefed up insulation as the cold will just migrate to the frig (eg not lost). There are no spillover holes in the insert (filled in when I went to 2 separate independent cooling units) to cut down on moisture getting into the freezer and onto the plates.
We have used this configuration for almost 2 decades. We lost a fair amount of space with this insulation in a design which is luckily actually enormous (after removal of the huge cold plate) for a 40-foot boat, so we rarely miss the lost space. We use our freezer a lot.
Another worthy addition was to have a “condensation” pad. Ours was a sheet of ¾ inch Armouflex which was cut to fit the top counter over the frig and freezer. This stopped completely the occasional condensation on the counter tops on hot humid days, added to the insulation of the refrigerated areas and was less of a pain than we thought it would be: easily folded to one side or the other or just put aside when cooking.
During hot humid times we defrost the evaporator plates every 3-4 weeks as needed, rarely more than 6 weeks even in cooler drier wx. This helps efficiency a great deal (Turn off units for 4-8 hrs depending allowing for ice to lose adhesion and be quickly scraped off. Items do not unfreeze if stored in bags and covered by blankets.) When defrosting all insulation mentioned comes out but rarely needs any attention and mold etc. has not been a problem.
We also added more insulation (spray in expanding foam) from the outside, in part to deal with mold that occurred on the settee cushions near the freezer, but that is another story.
I considered adding more permanent inside insulation such as being discussed but rejected all ideas I came up with as not being any better than what I had or not being easily removable for cleaning. The ABS plastic reported sounds promising, but I would still worry about moisture migration behind and around fixed panels providing a playground for mold, dirt, meat/chicken juice spills etc over the years.
The above insulation made an enormous difference when we were in warm water/hot climate. My memory is that freezer duty went from 60-70% down to 40-45% or better (in tropics water). It was hard to tell as the above evolved over a couple of years. In these cold waters I am in now freezer duty is about 25% .
My best to all, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy, V42-128

Hi Simon,
Ps.
It has been a long while since I have heard mention of vacuum panels, which may say something about them: or not. I looked at them hard when I did the previous post’s work and decided that they would not fit well, were quite expensive and I worried about random reports of their losing their vacuum and becoming essentially useless. They seemed ideal for a custom job where they could be fitted into “slots” where they could be easily replaced if they lost their vacuum (not sure how one would actually know). I do not know of any boat that has gone that way: which again may or may not say something. I do think if they were making a big difference, the many many boats that are poorly insulated in their frig would have been making noise about them
Random thoughts,Dick

S, Did you see the previous post where I describe what we actually did? D

Hi Simon,
Understood,
From memory, the challenge with retrofitting vacuum panels is that they never fit exactly and that mold, mildew and yuck accumulate in hard-to-reach places. Some make their panels removable which works fine, but possibly the best install I am aware of used some king of “caulking” that set up pretty hard (allowing for cleaning) and improved the overall effectiveness of the panels and insulation. No memory of what that caulking was or if still available.
My best, Dick