By Gianluca - 9 Sep 2015
Hello,
I am looking into a self steering mechanism. After reading the websites of Hydrovane (http://www.hydrovane.com) and Monitor wind vane (http://www.selfsteer.com), I would like to hear what OCC members use specially in heavy boats, over 20T.
I noticed that there are at least 5-10 products to consider so it would be nice to hear other self steering product opinions.
I appreciate any info (the good, the bad and the ugly).
Thanks,
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By DariaBlackwell - 13 Sep 2015
We have a Bowman 57 and love our Monitor windvane. We learned why and were grateful that it came with a replacement post as the forces in storms did indeed stress the system. This is Alex repairing one of the issues mid-Atlantic while we were hove to. I 'll get Alex to give you more of the technical perspective.
[attachment=274]IMG_0432.JPG[/attachment]
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By Alex_Blackwell - 13 Sep 2015
To roll it back a 'bit ', when fitting Aleria out for crossing oceans, we went to the boat shows and interviewed all the current manufacturers. We had already put a windvane at the very top of our list.
The net result was that our Bowmann 57 a 57 ' cutter rigged ketch weighing in at about 29 tonnes, was simply too big and heavy for most of the systems. Only Scanmar instilled confidence in us with the Monitor. They were the only manufacturer that had a boat of our size on their books. This is what we purchased, and I did the entire installation myself.
We have since sailed many tens of thousands of miles with the Monitor doing all the steering. It does, of course need frequent adjusting as the winds shift - all these systems sail to the apparent wind.
Bear in mind, that even with your sail plan perfectly balanced, which we have learned to do, the steering forces are immense - particularly in a choppy, confused sea. Daria mentioned a tube that broke - it is meant to break if the forces become too great. We broke several, and we now carry 3-4 spares at all times.
We have learned, that when the forces are too much, near coastal and Biscay come to mind, we revert to manual steering or we engage the electronic autohelm, which has very different functionality.
Scanmar also offers an emergency rudder, which can be attached to the monitor frame. We have this, but have never used it, as we were able to repair our steering while underway each time it failed.
I no longer have my interview notes, but if memory serves me, Hydrovane is an excellent product for smaller boats, one I would recommend looking at.
Fair Winds
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By stuartletton - 13 Sep 2015
Hi
When I bought our 30,000lb Island Packet 45 in Boston USA we researched what we could find to decide on which vane to buy. Primarily because of its emergency rudder potential we opted for a Hydrovane.
24 hours out of Boston heading for Scotland the main vertical tube started sliding down the brackets. Unable to fix it hanging off the back we returned to Boston where my professional engineer friend who by chance we had on board completely re-built and re-mounted the system (which the boatyard had fitted)
Back in place and back on passage we found the bolts holding the main tube to its mounting bracket "gripped" the inner steering tube causing the system to bind. Loosened off, the main tube started slipping again.
To make a bad situation worse, the horizontal tube mounted on the transom bracket started pulling out.
End result, we hand steered to Azores where once again we re-built. On second leg home, exact same problem.
Sold it on eBay as Hydrovane quite unhelpful and bought a Monitor which has since steered us beautifully on 3 trans Atlantics.
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By Gianluca - 4 Oct 2015
How many years have you had the monitor installed?
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By Gianluca - 4 Oct 2015
When did you purchase the Hydrovane?
Thanks,
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By stuartletton - 4 Oct 2015
I purchased the Hydrovane in March 2008. Sold it on eBay July 2008. I installed the Monitor in 2010
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By Alex_Blackwell - 4 Oct 2015
Gianluca
We have had our Monitor since early 2008. We have done 3 Atlantic crossings with it plus numerous other passages with it steering virtually the whole time.
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By Wild Bird - 11 May 2017
We have a Windpilot self steering system. Hope this experience will be helpful to others with similar systems. All self steering systems that use lines to the wheel are designed for approximately two turns lock to lock. The rope drums on these systems are all very similar diameter and the servo pendulums swing through similar angles.
We had difficulty getting the Windpilot to put enough lock on the wheel to correct the course in waves. Our steering is 3.5 turns lock to lock. The Windpilot or any other wheel steering system could not generate the lock to correct the course. We tried everything to balance the boat but it simply could not create enough rudder movement. We did solve the problem though. By installing 1:2 pulleys on the steering lines we doubled the line movement so it turned the wheel twice as much. All of a sudden the Windpilot performs brilliantly in all conditions! We even have the adjustable attachment point on the pendulum arm at maximum and it still has enough power to give us all the steering we need. It is amazing to watch it in big waves just pour lock on to correct. Really please with this simple modification that has transformed our Self Steering performance. If you have similar issues give it a try
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By Charles.Shelby - 25 Feb 2019
I am current researching a self steering solution for my Pearson 530 45T Ketch Rig sailboat. Does any one have any performance data on a really heavy boat?
Cheers,
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By Dick - 25 Feb 2019
Hi Charles,
Ketches are always a challenge for self steering gear, but your boat is common enough so that others may have tried it. I would try Hans at Scanmar in the US as they are the vendor for Monitor windvanes and may have worked with your design boat.
Good luck and let us know what you find out, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By DariaBlackwell - 27 Feb 2019
I can second Dick's suggestion. We have a Monitor on our Bowman 57 ketch and have been impressed with its performance and Scanmar's service - the best we've ever experienced. See Alex's post below.
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By Thomas.Rolph - 17 Jun 2022
Just to add a bit of balance to the Hydrovane camp, I fitted one to my Bavaria Vision 46 a couple of months ago.
I've only done one trip with it - Gibraltar to Madeira (600 nm) but it has performed impeccably.
This is a 2021 model so maybe improved on the 2008 version.
The pole should never slip if the clamps are tightened up correctly.
if the fittings start to pull out of the stern then the stern needed reinforcing and backing plates
I glassed at least 6 layers on the inside before using the factory supplied aluminium backing plates.
Still its early days the trip to Tenerife should test it some more
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By Dick - 18 Jun 2022
+xJust to add a bit of balance to the Hydrovane camp, I fitted one to my Bavaria Vision 46 a couple of months ago. I've only done one trip with it - Gibraltar to Madeira (600 nm) but it has performed impeccably. This is a 2021 model so maybe improved on the 2008 version. The pole should never slip if the clamps are tightened up correctly. if the fittings start to pull out of the stern then the stern needed reinforcing and backing plates I glassed at least 6 layers on the inside before using the factory supplied aluminium backing plates. Still its early days the trip to Tenerife should test it some more
Hi all,
I think a case can be made for passage making using a below decks autopilot, particularly as the size of the boat increases: this is especially the case where there are ample resources for replacing the amps used by the autopilot. This is often not a problem on an increasing number of sailboats: either by hydro, wind, or solar. And many boats have generators (the argument for a generator is if the boat has either a big freezer or wants aircon at anchor) which can be run on passage when the batteries need topping off.
Add to the above, that below deck autopilots have become (and are becoming) more efficient in their use of power, are more robust and reliable, and are very easy to use and adjust and I think the argument for passage making under electric autopilot takes shape.
We have, and have used, a Monitor, but in recent years and during our last Atlantic crossing, we used our electric autopilot exclusively: it was just far less fussy and more predictable in adjusting under the pressure or a squall or event of some sort.. We do have a big freezer, so genset use daily is a given: I suspect that the autopilot just adds a few minutes extra run time.
There is the above, and the fact that, like most cruising boats, we cruise and that means coastal cruising, where the electric autopilot shines and wind vanes, who like the steady breezes of open ocean, do not shine. For example, we have ~~70k miles on Alchemy, and ~~70 countries visited, but only 2 Atlantic crossings (and those were broken up with stops along the way). So the vast majority of our cruising miles were not where a wind vane would have been used (and yes, I know some few skippers use wind vanes for shorter hops, but most of us are intolerant of the work and attention that entails). And in all those miles, our autopilot has never let us down (tempting the fates now, I am)
So, sad to say, our Monitor remains with us as a back-up for a lightening strike or another sort of electrical catastrophe.
Not sure what I would do now, but I would certainly consider having no wind vane: perhaps buy a second autopilot with the money saved.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By Thomas.Collins - 12 Nov 2022
Hi,
I have just been through the deliberations for my Gunfleet 43. We already had an autopilot which can be controlled from the helm or from below. However, given that we wished to be equipped for solo sailing, a backup solution was mandatory. One solution (implemented by Ryan from Youtube channel Ryan and Sophie Sailing) was to set up a second, completely independent autopilot. The alternative was self steering. My boat was in Northern Spain this summer and there is a yard at Xufre which has become a specialist by default. They have installed Hydrovanes on four yachts over the winter of 2021/22.
My previous view had been that self steering was for small boats (say below 35ft). However this has changed in the last 15 years. Around 2007/8 Hydrovane introduced a much bigger rudder. However they did not modify the main shaft and, in some cases, the mechanics of the extra load caused flexing in the shaft such that the system did not work well. This was fixed by upgrading the shaft to duplex stainless.
Last winter in the Caribbean I met three ownersusing Hydrovane on boats bigger than mine.
Based on these recommendations I had a Hydrovane fitted in August. No complaints so far, although I will be able to give a better critique in one month after using it for an Atlantic crossing
Hope this helps,
Tom Collins
S/Y Skyfall
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By Dick - 12 Nov 2022
+xHi, I have just been through the deliberations for my Gunfleet 43. We already had an autopilot which can be controlled from the helm or from below. However, given that we wished to be equipped for solo sailing, a backup solution was mandatory. One solution (implemented by Ryan from Youtube channel Ryan and Sophie Sailing) was to set up a second, completely independent autopilot. The alternative was self steering. My boat was in Northern Spain this summer and there is a yard at Xufre which has become a specialist by default. They have installed Hydrovanes on four yachts over the winter of 2021/22. My previous view had been that self steering was for small boats (say below 35ft). However this has changed in the last 15 years. Around 2007/8 Hydrovane introduced a much bigger rudder. However they did not modify the main shaft and, in some cases, the mechanics of the extra load caused flexing in the shaft such that the system did not work well. This was fixed by upgrading the shaft to duplex stainless. Last winter in the Caribbean I met three ownersusing Hydrovane on boats bigger than mine. Based on these recommendations I had a Hydrovane fitted in August. No complaints so far, although I will be able to give a better critique in one month after using it for an Atlantic crossing Hope this helps, Tom Collins S/Y Skyfall
Hi Tom, Nice report. I look forward to your field report, especially if they include some light air as well as heavier air sailing and how "fussy" you experience the use of the autopilot. Also, is a Hydrovane adaptable so it can be used as an aux rudder if there is a boat failure in that area?
Thanks, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By Thomas.Collins - 12 Nov 2022
+x+xHi, I have just been through the deliberations for my Gunfleet 43. We already had an autopilot which can be controlled from the helm or from below. However, given that we wished to be equipped for solo sailing, a backup solution was mandatory. One solution (implemented by Ryan from Youtube channel Ryan and Sophie Sailing) was to set up a second, completely independent autopilot. The alternative was self steering. My boat was in Northern Spain this summer and there is a yard at Xufre which has become a specialist by default. They have installed Hydrovanes on four yachts over the winter of 2021/22. My previous view had been that self steering was for small boats (say below 35ft). However this has changed in the last 15 years. Around 2007/8 Hydrovane introduced a much bigger rudder. However they did not modify the main shaft and, in some cases, the mechanics of the extra load caused flexing in the shaft such that the system did not work well. This was fixed by upgrading the shaft to duplex stainless. Last winter in the Caribbean I met three ownersusing Hydrovane on boats bigger than mine. Based on these recommendations I had a Hydrovane fitted in August. No complaints so far, although I will be able to give a better critique in one month after using it for an Atlantic crossing Hope this helps, Tom Collins S/Y Skyfall Hi Tom, Nice report. I look forward to your field report, especially if they include some light air as well as heavier air sailing and how "fussy" you experience the use of the autopilot. Also, is a Hydrovane adaptable so it can be used as an aux rudder if there is a boat failure in that area? Thanks, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Yes, in principle it can function as an emergency rudder. However, it cannot 'fight' the main rudder. So the main rudder has to either be completely detached (orca bite?) or somehow locked centrally. I am not sure either scenario is realistic. And I hope I never find out!
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By rhudson - 13 Nov 2022
The original post starting this thread asked about what OCC members use for self-steering on heavy boats.
My 50' Damien II schooner is about 25 tons fully loaded. The boat is used for living aboard and long-distance cruising much more than for coastal cruising.
No autopilot (the boat came with an old one, which I got tired of fixing and removed it about 30,000 miles ago). I hate motoring, and don't do a huge amount of coastal cruising, so it isn't very hard to do without an autopilot.
A home-made windvane built from plans in a french sailing magazine (--it came with the boat--I don't have the plans or know the name of the magazine), drives a trim tab on the back of an auxiliary rudder. The auxiliary rudder also has a detachable tiller. The vast majority of the 110,000 miles that the boat has sailed have been steered by this windvane.
Sheet-to-tiller self-steering is used when the wind is too light for the windvane. The bearings in the homemade windvane have more friction than bearings in commercially-available windvanes, so it does not work as well in light winds as commercially-available windvanes.
I use sheet-to-tiller self-steering in winds too light for the windvane. If you're not familiar with sheet-to-tiller self-steering, I suggest looking at some youtube videos about it (there are several, including one of mine). Rope, blocks and bungy cords are all the equipment required--it is absolutely the lowest-cost method of self-steering.
Sheet-to-tiller is the hardest way of self-steering--it takes quite a bit of time to learn, and then every time the sails are reefed or the course is changed, it takes me 2-10 minutes to get it adjusted correctly. Sheet-to-tiller is more demanding of getting the sails balanced than the windvane is (and windvanes require getting the sails balanced more than autopilots do).
So that is what I use for self-steering my heavy boat. Keep in mind the usage profile--if I was doing a lot of coastal cruising, and had frequent time pressures that made me motor often, I'd want an autopilot as well.
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By Dick - 13 Nov 2022
+xThe original post starting this thread asked about what OCC members use for self-steering on heavy boats. My 50' Damien II schooner is about 25 tons fully loaded. The boat is used for living aboard and long-distance cruising much more than for coastal cruising. No autopilot (the boat came with an old one, which I got tired of fixing and removed it about 30,000 miles ago). I hate motoring, and don't do a huge amount of coastal cruising, so it isn't very hard to do without an autopilot. A home-made windvane built from plans in a french sailing magazine (--it came with the boat--I don't have the plans or know the name of the magazine), drives a trim tab on the back of an auxiliary rudder. The auxiliary rudder also has a detachable tiller. The vast majority of the 110,000 miles that the boat has sailed have been steered by this windvane. Sheet-to-tiller self-steering is used when the wind is too light for the windvane. The bearings in the homemade windvane have more friction than bearings in commercially-available windvanes, so it does not work as well in light winds as commercially-available windvanes. I use sheet-to-tiller self-steering in winds too light for the windvane. If you're not familiar with sheet-to-tiller self-steering, I suggest looking at some youtube videos about it (there are several, including one of mine). Rope, blocks and bungy cords are all the equipment required--it is absolutely the lowest-cost method of self-steering. Sheet-to-tiller is the hardest way of self-steering--it takes quite a bit of time to learn, and then every time the sails are reefed or the course is changed, it takes me 2-10 minutes to get it adjusted correctly. Sheet-to-tiller is more demanding of getting the sails balanced than the windvane is (and windvanes require getting the sails balanced more than autopilots do). So that is what I use for self-steering my heavy boat. Keep in mind the usage profile--if I was doing a lot of coastal cruising, and had frequent time pressures that made me motor often, I'd want an autopilot as well.
Hi Richard,
A really lovely report bringing a wealth of experience to bear on the question. I particularly enjoyed your bringing some “historical” practices into present day life. It is good to be reminded of skills long forgotten, or never imagined, in this world of technology and automation: in part, because those skills still can have a place in a boat where something unfortunate has occurred and, also, because it is always good to know the antecedents of the equipment being used today. Casual observation of trim tabs leads me to think they are smart and seaworthy and, unfortunately, out of fashion, much like tillers are.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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