By novara - 4 Mar 2021
I have now collated all the feedback and passed it on to Martin Thomas who is editing the new edition of "Heavy Weather Sailing".
It was great to hear first hand accounts from Randall Reeves, Jeanne Socrates, Tony Gooch, Tim Good and Susanne Huber-Curphey among many others. The new edition of HWS will appear in due course but should anyone be considering venturing into the more extreme conditions and want to know more about the JSD I have attached a copy of my summary below.
I would also like to hear of some of the more technical aspects from anyone that has used the JSD .
Boat length and weight
number and type of cones
approximate distance from the stern to the first cones
Tail weight used
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By simoncurrin - 4 Mar 2021
Thanks Steve that’s brilliant. We have bolted on stainless chain plates for ours but never used it in anger.
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By DariaBlackwell - 13 Mar 2021
I just came across this article by Beth Leonard and Evans Starzinger who used the Galerider .
https://www.practical-sailor.com/sails-rigging-deckgear/heavy-weather-sailing-gear
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By Palmer - 3 Apr 2021
+xI have now collated all the feedback and passed it on to Martin Thomas who is editing the new edition of "Heavy Weather Sailing". It was great to hear first hand accounts from Randall Reeves, Jeanne Socrates, Tony Gooch, Tim Good and Susanne Huber-Curphey among many others. The new edition of HWS will appear in due course but should anyone be considering venturing into the more extreme conditions and want to know more about the JSD I have attached a copy of my summary below. I would also like to hear of some of the more technical aspects from anyone that has used the JSD . Boat length and weight number and type of cones approximate distance from the stern to the first cones Tail weight used
Steve, thank - its a great summary and when I need a JSD it will be good to be able to rely on the distilled wisdom of such an experienced group of sailors. I have a question about single handed retrieval. One of issues seems to be that cones and self tailing winches don't get on too well, yet tailing by hand is tedious and slow on your own. What about having a long retrieval line that goes forward around a snatch block on the toe rail then back to the main sheet winch? That way you can winch in almost one boat's length using the self tailing, then repeat the process. I guess tying off the drouge still in the water and then reattaching the retrieval rope takes a bit of time, but it feels like it is a controlled process that exploits the full power of a big self tailing sheet winch. Going one step further, I guess you could use the anchor winch, but that would need two snatch block to get the lead to the winch correct.
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By Dick - 3 Apr 2021
+x+xI have now collated all the feedback and passed it on to Martin Thomas who is editing the new edition of "Heavy Weather Sailing". It was great to hear first hand accounts from Randall Reeves, Jeanne Socrates, Tony Gooch, Tim Good and Susanne Huber-Curphey among many others. The new edition of HWS will appear in due course but should anyone be considering venturing into the more extreme conditions and want to know more about the JSD I have attached a copy of my summary below. I would also like to hear of some of the more technical aspects from anyone that has used the JSD . Boat length and weight number and type of cones approximate distance from the stern to the first cones Tail weight used Steve, thank - its a great summary and when I need a JSD it will be good to be able to rely on the distilled wisdom of such an experienced group of sailors. I have a question about single handed retrieval. One of issues seems to be that cones and self tailing winches don't get on too well, yet tailing by hand is tedious and slow on your own. What about having a long retrieval line that goes forward around a snatch block on the toe rail then back to the main sheet winch? That way you can winch in almost one boat's length using the self tailing, then repeat the process. I guess tying off the drouge still in the water and then reattaching the retrieval rope takes a bit of time, but it feels like it is a controlled process that exploits the full power of a big self tailing sheet winch. Going one step further, I guess you could use the anchor winch, but that would need two snatch block to get the lead to the winch correct.
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By Dick - 3 Apr 2021
+x+x+xI have now collated all the feedback and passed it on to Martin Thomas who is editing the new edition of "Heavy Weather Sailing". It was great to hear first hand accounts from Randall Reeves, Jeanne Socrates, Tony Gooch, Tim Good and Susanne Huber-Curphey among many others. The new edition of HWS will appear in due course but should anyone be considering venturing into the more extreme conditions and want to know more about the JSD I have attached a copy of my summary below. I would also like to hear of some of the more technical aspects from anyone that has used the JSD . Boat length and weight number and type of cones approximate distance from the stern to the first cones Tail weight used Steve, thank - its a great summary and when I need a JSD it will be good to be able to rely on the distilled wisdom of such an experienced group of sailors. I have a question about single handed retrieval. One of issues seems to be that cones and self tailing winches don't get on too well, yet tailing by hand is tedious and slow on your own. What about having a long retrieval line that goes forward around a snatch block on the toe rail then back to the main sheet winch? That way you can winch in almost one boat's length using the self tailing, then repeat the process. I guess tying off the drouge still in the water and then reattaching the retrieval rope takes a bit of time, but it feels like it is a controlled process that exploits the full power of a big self tailing sheet winch. Going one step further, I guess you could use the anchor winch, but that would need two snatch block to get the lead to the winch correct.
Hi Palmer,
I believe that is the preferred method for retrieving a JSD whether single-handed or crewed. It was the what I would have used if I had deployed mine.
In the realm of the usefulness of having knowledge of “old” practices, this method is the same as the retrieval of the huge anchor rodes on square rigged ships where the cable is far too large to go around a capstan: so, messenger lines (forget their technical name) are used with rolling hitches to draw the cable in.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By Palmer - 3 Apr 2021
+x+x+x+xI have now collated all the feedback and passed it on to Martin Thomas who is editing the new edition of "Heavy Weather Sailing". It was great to hear first hand accounts from Randall Reeves, Jeanne Socrates, Tony Gooch, Tim Good and Susanne Huber-Curphey among many others. The new edition of HWS will appear in due course but should anyone be considering venturing into the more extreme conditions and want to know more about the JSD I have attached a copy of my summary below. I would also like to hear of some of the more technical aspects from anyone that has used the JSD . Boat length and weight number and type of cones approximate distance from the stern to the first cones Tail weight used Steve, thank - its a great summary and when I need a JSD it will be good to be able to rely on the distilled wisdom of such an experienced group of sailors. I have a question about single handed retrieval. One of issues seems to be that cones and self tailing winches don't get on too well, yet tailing by hand is tedious and slow on your own. What about having a long retrieval line that goes forward around a snatch block on the toe rail then back to the main sheet winch? That way you can winch in almost one boat's length using the self tailing, then repeat the process. I guess tying off the drouge still in the water and then reattaching the retrieval rope takes a bit of time, but it feels like it is a controlled process that exploits the full power of a big self tailing sheet winch. Going one step further, I guess you could use the anchor winch, but that would need two snatch block to get the lead to the winch correct. Hi Palmer, I believe that is the preferred method for retrieving a JSD whether single-handed or crewed. It was the what I would have used if I had deployed mine. In the realm of the usefulness of having knowledge of “old” practices, this method is the same as the retrieval of the huge anchor rodes on square rigged ships where the cable is far too large to go around a capstan: so, messenger lines (forget their technical name) are used with rolling hitches to draw the cable in. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Thanks - maybe I have read it somewhere else - but either way it is good to know that people use that method.
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By Dick - 3 Apr 2021
+x+x+x+x+xI have now collated all the feedback and passed it on to Martin Thomas who is editing the new edition of "Heavy Weather Sailing". It was great to hear first hand accounts from Randall Reeves, Jeanne Socrates, Tony Gooch, Tim Good and Susanne Huber-Curphey among many others. The new edition of HWS will appear in due course but should anyone be considering venturing into the more extreme conditions and want to know more about the JSD I have attached a copy of my summary below. I would also like to hear of some of the more technical aspects from anyone that has used the JSD . Boat length and weight number and type of cones approximate distance from the stern to the first cones Tail weight used Steve, thank - its a great summary and when I need a JSD it will be good to be able to rely on the distilled wisdom of such an experienced group of sailors. I have a question about single handed retrieval. One of issues seems to be that cones and self tailing winches don't get on too well, yet tailing by hand is tedious and slow on your own. What about having a long retrieval line that goes forward around a snatch block on the toe rail then back to the main sheet winch? That way you can winch in almost one boat's length using the self tailing, then repeat the process. I guess tying off the drouge still in the water and then reattaching the retrieval rope takes a bit of time, but it feels like it is a controlled process that exploits the full power of a big self tailing sheet winch. Going one step further, I guess you could use the anchor winch, but that would need two snatch block to get the lead to the winch correct. Hi Palmer, I believe that is the preferred method for retrieving a JSD whether single-handed or crewed. It was the what I would have used if I had deployed mine. In the realm of the usefulness of having knowledge of “old” practices, this method is the same as the retrieval of the huge anchor rodes on square rigged ships where the cable is far too large to go around a capstan: so, messenger lines (forget their technical name) are used with rolling hitches to draw the cable in. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy Thanks - maybe I have read it somewhere else - but either way it is good to know that people use that method.
Perhaps Steve can confirm my sense of things. Dic
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By Noel.Dilly - 5 Apr 2021
I have very much enjoyed the expert contribution to the Drogue forum. I have only deployed my home made drogue on three occasions, twice in anger(near terror) and once in a series of experiments.
If you can use a sewing machine you can make a drogue. If you can read Don Jordon”s articles you can work out the dimensions for your boat. If anyone needs any advice or a template for cutting out the drogues I will help. I would not use dyneema as the line . All arresting devices should have some elasticity to avoid impact loading. Hitting things breaks them. I prefer good old nylon anchor plait.
The bridles need massive snap hooks, hanging on trying to put pins in shackles with only two hands available is not easy. The anchorages as has been stressed should be substantial. It in not wise to introduce chafe in the system by having them inboard. The transom or the flanks of the stern are far better sites.
Storage. I use a drum (photo)
Deployment. Start early the preliminary steps are easy to reverse if you are lucky enough not to have to complete the deployment. Take your time fitting the bridles first. They should already be marked with equal distances from the junction with the main line. I have one bridle twice as long as the other. This extra length bridle is very useful when retrieving the drogue. What I do basically is take it to the bow, and put it via the stem head fitting on the anchor winch. Release the other bridle swing round facing the drogue start the engine, and using the winch slowly motor up the drogue retrieving it. Take care as the cones mass through the fitting.
Actual deployment. I prefer the loop method- Bridle and cone free line in first then the first of the cones will enter the water facing backwards. At this point I remove the paddle and vane from the self steering. Let out the rest of the drogue until only the spliced in chain remains abroad . Then drop the chain over the side of the stern. I once added more chain with no obvious difference to the angle of dangle. My unit has 3 metres of 10mm chain.
The drogue is now deployed and it is time to have a tot of malt whisky with Lord Neptune.
Noel Dilly
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By Dick - 5 Apr 2021
+xI have very much enjoyed the expert contribution to the Drogue forum. I have only deployed my home made drogue on three occasions, twice in anger(near terror) and once in a series of experiments. If you can use a sewing machine you can make a drogue. If you can read Don Jordon”s articles you can work out the dimensions for your boat. If anyone needs any advice or a template for cutting out the drogues I will help. I would not use dyneema as the line . All arresting devices should have some elasticity to avoid impact loading. Hitting things breaks them. I prefer good old nylon anchor plait. The bridles need massive snap hooks, hanging on trying to put pins in shackles with only two hands available is not easy. The anchorages as has been stressed should be substantial. It in not wise to introduce chafe in the system by having them inboard. The transom or the flanks of the stern are far better sites. Storage. I use a drum (photo) Deployment. Start early the preliminary steps are easy to reverse if you are lucky enough not to have to complete the deployment. Take your time fitting the bridles first. They should already be marked with equal distances from the junction with the main line. I have one bridle twice as long as the other. This extra length bridle is very useful when retrieving the drogue. What I do basically is take it to the bow, and put it via the stem head fitting on the anchor winch. Release the other bridle swing round facing the drogue start the engine, and using the winch slowly motor up the drogue retrieving it. Take care as the cones mass through the fitting. Actual deployment. I prefer the loop method- Bridle and cone free line in first then the first of the cones will enter the water facing backwards. At this point I remove the paddle and vane from the self steering. Let out the rest of the drogue until only the spliced in chain remains abroad . Then drop the chain over the side of the stern. I once added more chain with no obvious difference to the angle of dangle. My unit has 3 metres of 10mm chain. The drogue is now deployed and it is time to have a tot of malt whisky with Lord Neptune. Noel Dilly
Hi Noel,
It is great to have a field report: the best kind of information.
I agree that some stretch is nice to mitigate shock loading. I mention synthetics (Dyneema is one) as my JSD with its nylon braid was incredibly heavy when soaked with water (40-foot boat) and conventional line was like a sponge where high modulus line sheds water and remains pretty much its original weight. My reading and research have led me to believe that HM line can be used successfully (perhaps the bridle can or should be nylon to mitigate some of the shock loading).
These are still early days in many respects, and the jury is still out with some details of construction, even though, already, I believe the JSD has proven itself to be very effective in storm/survival conditions. Any skipper is wise to do a good deal of research on his/her own to in determining the details.
In any case, in reading and research, the loads on a JSD will be enormous. Boats I know have done pretty massive chainplates on the stern of their boats. It takes some planning to do it right.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By Noel.Dilly - 6 Apr 2021
Drogue retrieval.
I have spent some time experimenting with drogue retrieval. The first essential I discovered was to stop the boat as much as possible, either by heaving to, or motoring into the wind at tick over. Basically this meant that the cones were not active and did not create much of a load.
Next discovery, I needed to wear a harness and tether, both hands were in use pulling on the line, and some of the snatching was unbalancing. I needed to stand up because most of the power involved leg muscles. Safety wise I did not like the method at all.
Next try was to retreat to the cockpit . the winches were a waste of time the gain was so slow. I fixed that by using my handy billy (portable block and tackle) in the cockpit. I anchored the inboard end to a harness anchorage that is alongside the companion way entrance. The other end was attached to the drogue using a simple loop of line. No fancy knot, just loop the loop through itself around the drogue line. It never slipped. I just hauled the drogue line in using the block and tackle as far as the cockpit anchorage. and secured the loop to the anchor point . With a second loop the process is just repeated. The block and tackle were sufficient mechanical advantage that I did not need to use a which to use the tackle. When the cones appeared I was worried about damage to them so put a fender under the line. About twenty minutes work to retrieve my drogue.
Age was the stimulus for evolving the anchor winch method.
Noel Dilly
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By Noel.Dilly - 6 Apr 2021
+x+xI have very much enjoyed the expert contribution to the Drogue forum. I have only deployed my home made drogue on three occasions, twice in anger(near terror) and once in a series of experiments. If you can use a sewing machine you can make a drogue. If you can read Don Jordon”s articles you can work out the dimensions for your boat. If anyone needs any advice or a template for cutting out the drogues I will help. I would not use dyneema as the line . All arresting devices should have some elasticity to avoid impact loading. Hitting things breaks them. I prefer good old nylon anchor plait. The bridles need massive snap hooks, hanging on trying to put pins in shackles with only two hands available is not easy. The anchorages as has been stressed should be substantial. It in not wise to introduce chafe in the system by having them inboard. The transom or the flanks of the stern are far better sites. Storage. I use a drum (photo) Deployment. Start early the preliminary steps are easy to reverse if you are lucky enough not to have to complete the deployment. Take your time fitting the bridles first. They should already be marked with equal distances from the junction with the main line. I have one bridle twice as long as the other. This extra length bridle is very useful when retrieving the drogue. What I do basically is take it to the bow, and put it via the stem head fitting on the anchor winch. Release the other bridle swing round facing the drogue start the engine, and using the winch slowly motor up the drogue retrieving it. Take care as the cones mass through the fitting. Actual deployment. I prefer the loop method- Bridle and cone free line in first then the first of the cones will enter the water facing backwards. At this point I remove the paddle and vane from the self steering. Let out the rest of the drogue until only the spliced in chain remains abroad . Then drop the chain over the side of the stern. I once added more chain with no obvious difference to the angle of dangle. My unit has 3 metres of 10mm chain. The drogue is now deployed and it is time to have a tot of malt whisky with Lord Neptune. Noel Dilly Hi Noel, It is great to have a field report: the best kind of information. I agree that some stretch is nice to mitigate shock loading. I mention synthetics (Dyneema is one) as my JSD with its nylon braid was incredibly heavy when soaked with water (40-foot boat) and conventional line was like a sponge where high modulus line sheds water and remains pretty much its original weight. My reading and research have led me to believe that HM line can be used successfully (perhaps the bridle can or should be nylon to mitigate some of the shock loading). These are still early days in many respects, and the jury is still out with some details of construction, even though, already, I believe the JSD has proven itself to be very effective in storm/survival conditions. Any skipper is wise to do a good deal of research on his/her own to in determining the details. In any case, in reading and research, the loads on a JSD will be enormous. Boats I know have done pretty massive chainplates on the stern of their boats. It takes some planning to do it right. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hi Dick,
Interesting stuff. I was reminded vividly of one drogue experience when you wrote of waterlogged lines. I can recall looking anxiously over the stern at my drogue as Bits reached the crest of a large wave. The enduring memory is just before we slipped off the crest down the wave, “the line came tight and water sprayed out of it like a surrounding halo.”
I agree very much that the JSD is probably the best storm safety device for small boats .
The rival is the parachute drogue, but only when deployed properly. As the Pardies ,Voss and others have demonstrated it needs to be deployed as an adjunct to heaving to. Once deployed it is quite a pleasant sensation down below
To deploy a parachute directly forwards from the bow of a monohull is a horrendous mistake.The catenary and elasticity in the line ensures that the boat gyrates around on the end of the line slamming and jerking in a quite disturbing way. This has to be so, there are no constant forces keeping the hull in position . Both the wind strength and wave direction vary. The elastic recoil in the rope does the rest, pulling the boat forwards, then the rope goes slack the wind pushes the boat back until the line jerks tight and the cycle is repeated.
I was never sure exactly where the parachute was, it was guesswork for me to deploy it wavelength away.
Noel
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By Dick - 6 Apr 2021
+x+x+xI have very much enjoyed the expert contribution to the Drogue forum. I have only deployed my home made drogue on three occasions, twice in anger(near terror) and once in a series of experiments. If you can use a sewing machine you can make a drogue. If you can read Don Jordon”s articles you can work out the dimensions for your boat. If anyone needs any advice or a template for cutting out the drogues I will help. I would not use dyneema as the line . All arresting devices should have some elasticity to avoid impact loading. Hitting things breaks them. I prefer good old nylon anchor plait. The bridles need massive snap hooks, hanging on trying to put pins in shackles with only two hands available is not easy. The anchorages as has been stressed should be substantial. It in not wise to introduce chafe in the system by having them inboard. The transom or the flanks of the stern are far better sites. Storage. I use a drum (photo) Deployment. Start early the preliminary steps are easy to reverse if you are lucky enough not to have to complete the deployment. Take your time fitting the bridles first. They should already be marked with equal distances from the junction with the main line. I have one bridle twice as long as the other. This extra length bridle is very useful when retrieving the drogue. What I do basically is take it to the bow, and put it via the stem head fitting on the anchor winch. Release the other bridle swing round facing the drogue start the engine, and using the winch slowly motor up the drogue retrieving it. Take care as the cones mass through the fitting. Actual deployment. I prefer the loop method- Bridle and cone free line in first then the first of the cones will enter the water facing backwards. At this point I remove the paddle and vane from the self steering. Let out the rest of the drogue until only the spliced in chain remains abroad . Then drop the chain over the side of the stern. I once added more chain with no obvious difference to the angle of dangle. My unit has 3 metres of 10mm chain. The drogue is now deployed and it is time to have a tot of malt whisky with Lord Neptune. Noel Dilly Hi Noel, It is great to have a field report: the best kind of information. I agree that some stretch is nice to mitigate shock loading. I mention synthetics (Dyneema is one) as my JSD with its nylon braid was incredibly heavy when soaked with water (40-foot boat) and conventional line was like a sponge where high modulus line sheds water and remains pretty much its original weight. My reading and research have led me to believe that HM line can be used successfully (perhaps the bridle can or should be nylon to mitigate some of the shock loading). These are still early days in many respects, and the jury is still out with some details of construction, even though, already, I believe the JSD has proven itself to be very effective in storm/survival conditions. Any skipper is wise to do a good deal of research on his/her own to in determining the details. In any case, in reading and research, the loads on a JSD will be enormous. Boats I know have done pretty massive chainplates on the stern of their boats. It takes some planning to do it right. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy Hi Dick, Interesting stuff. I was reminded vividly of one drogue experience when you wrote of waterlogged lines. I can recall looking anxiously over the stern at my drogue as Bits reached the crest of a large wave. The enduring memory is just before we slipped off the crest down the wave, “the line came tight and water sprayed out of it like a surrounding halo.” I agree very much that the JSD is probably the best storm safety device for small boats . The rival is the parachute drogue, but only when deployed properly. As the Pardies ,Voss and others have demonstrated it needs to be deployed as an adjunct to heaving to. Once deployed it is quite a pleasant sensation down below To deploy a parachute directly forwards from the bow of a monohull is a horrendous mistake.The catenary and elasticity in the line ensures that the boat gyrates around on the end of the line slamming and jerking in a quite disturbing way. This has to be so, there are no constant forces keeping the hull in position . Both the wind strength and wave direction vary. The elastic recoil in the rope does the rest, pulling the boat forwards, then the rope goes slack the wind pushes the boat back until the line jerks tight and the cycle is repeated. I was never sure exactly where the parachute was, it was guesswork for me to deploy it wavelength away. Noel
Hi Noel,
Again, the voice of experience. It is appreciated as I have been fortunate enough not have deployed either my parachute anchor nor my JSD in anger.
Agree completely that the JSD (off the stern) is the storm safety device of choice over a parachute anchor (off the bow). As I read and talk to others, getting the para anchor positioned properly can be finicky. It also seems clear to me that I would rather be working gear from the safety of the cockpit over the exposed area of the bow.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By Matt.North - 16 Apr 2023
Hi - does anyone have any experience using heavy duty U bolts with large backing plates on the transom, rather than attaching to chain plates bolted onto the side? It seems to me the strength would be better as the bolts are in line with the force rather than at 90 degrees?
Thanks
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By Dick - 16 Apr 2023
+xHi - does anyone have any experience using heavy duty U bolts with large backing plates on the transom, rather than attaching to chain plates bolted onto the side? It seems to me the strength would be better as the bolts are in line with the force rather than at 90 degrees? Thanks
Hi Matt,
I hope some engineering types weigh in.
My take is that most transoms and their scantlings were not designed for the massive forces generated by the JSD. Most boats I know have gone to a design along the side of a boat near the transom much like chainplates for the standing rigging. Even there, good engineering and evaluation of the distribution of forces should be appraised.
Note, when determining the holding power of a chainplate style installation, the holding power of the chainplate is generated primarily by the friction between the plate and the surface it is attached to and then distributed to structural components nearby: which is why the torque on the mounting bolts is crucial. The shear strength of the bolts holding the chainplate is far less important and should not come into play if the friction generated is adequate.
Contrast this with the point loading that even a fairly large backing plate would induce on a transom: which is not designed for that sort of load. In addition all forces will be borne by the two nut/threads of the “U” bolt (or the 4 nut/threads if 2 “U” bolts). I am sure that this can be looked up somewhere and would guess it does not come close the forces Jordan estimated (and that users have experienced) that the JSD generates.
My seat-of-the-pants thoughts, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By chrisjohncooling@gmail.com - 27 Dec 2023
+xI have very much enjoyed the expert contribution to the Drogue forum. I have only deployed my home made drogue on three occasions, twice in anger(near terror) and once in a series of experiments. If you can use a sewing machine you can make a drogue. If you can read Don Jordon”s articles you can work out the dimensions for your boat. If anyone needs any advice or a template for cutting out the drogues I will help. I would not use dyneema as the line . All arresting devices should have some elasticity to avoid impact loading. Hitting things breaks them. I prefer good old nylon anchor plait. The bridles need massive snap hooks, hanging on trying to put pins in shackles with only two hands available is not easy. The anchorages as has been stressed should be substantial. It in not wise to introduce chafe in the system by having them inboard. The transom or the flanks of the stern are far better sites. Storage. I use a drum (photo) Deployment. Start early the preliminary steps are easy to reverse if you are lucky enough not to have to complete the deployment. Take your time fitting the bridles first. They should already be marked with equal distances from the junction with the main line. I have one bridle twice as long as the other. This extra length bridle is very useful when retrieving the drogue. What I do basically is take it to the bow, and put it via the stem head fitting on the anchor winch. Release the other bridle swing round facing the drogue start the engine, and using the winch slowly motor up the drogue retrieving it. Take care as the cones mass through the fitting. Actual deployment. I prefer the loop method- Bridle and cone free line in first then the first of the cones will enter the water facing backwards. At this point I remove the paddle and vane from the self steering. Let out the rest of the drogue until only the spliced in chain remains abroad . Then drop the chain over the side of the stern. I once added more chain with no obvious difference to the angle of dangle. My unit has 3 metres of 10mm chain. The drogue is now deployed and it is time to have a tot of malt whisky with Lord Neptune. Noel Dilly
I deploy JSD in reverse the same way as I did in years past using an Admiralty design large canvas cone. I call this non-power mode. Chain first is power mode and is a hazard. Any tangle in the flake could rip off stern fittings or worse, cause injury.
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By Tim.Good - 11 Jan 2024
Following the webinar on JSD's this evening I said I would post the links. Some of these are already in Steve's PDF but here they are anyway:
US Coast Guard Report & JSD Specifications
http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/pdf/droguecoastguardreport.pdf
Case Studies Online
https://dragdevicedb.com
Sailrite DIY video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L23MdzCbx2Y
Tim Good’s website - page showing his chainplates and dimensions
http://www.chasing-contours.com/jsd-chainplates/
Excellent debate and discussion
https://www.morganscloud.com/2019/04/15/susie-goodalls-series-drogue-failure/
Making And Using A Series Drogue
(Back issue May 1994 issue of Yachting Monthly by Noel Dilly)
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By simoncurrin - 11 Jan 2024
The link to tonight's JSD webinar should appear here when it has finished optimising
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By Sonia.Johal - 12 Jan 2024
Thank you so very much ☺️🥂☺️
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By simoncurrin - 18 Jan 2024
Here is Trevor Roberton’s blog about JSD’s describing his experience gained from 11 deployments in anger http://iron-bark.blogspot.com/2023/09/notes-on-use-of-jordan-drogue.html
Simon
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By Dick - 18 Jan 2024
+x
Hi Simon,
I have read a number of descriptions of the use of the JSD, but this is among the best: in part as he covers all the basics as well as the potential pitfalls. Trevor also makes clear the amount of work it takes to keep the boat safe when conditions get to the point where a JSD is necessary.
And this from a sailor who, as the saying goes, has been-there-done-that.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By Tim.Good - 18 Jan 2024
Thanks Simon. Interesting use of the bridle retrieval line being use to skew the boat by some angle when different swells combine. Very interesting concept. That method perhaps warrants a much stronger retrieval line than perhaps others are using. I think I’ll do the same from now on.
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By Tom.Ray - 21 Jan 2024
+x
Daria - Thanks for posting this article. A key statement in the article pertains to the purpose of the drogue deployed, speed-limiting like the Gale Rider or medium-pull like the JSD - two different purposes. We have an Outbound 46. She can surf and we have seen speeds of 10+ knots for short periods. We carry a Gale Rider but have never had to deploy it an anger. Ideally we would have the space to carry both the Gale Rider and a JSD but as live aboards, space is super premium so the decision was made to carry the Gale Rider. Having listened in on the JSD webinar, I now question if we should swap out the Gale Rider for a JSD. We're still mulling that one over. Needless to say, prudent seamanship calls for a well thought out strategy and the tools to implement the heavy weather tactics called for in a given situation.
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By Tim.Good - 21 Jan 2024
Daria,
If you’re happen surfing at 10+ kts in control then I imagine gale rider wouldn’t come out much at the boat has good directional stability plus you’re an experienced helms person. As such I think you’d be better with the JSD since it would be a better solution in a really bad, long last long storm / depression where you could both rest rather than one of you being in the helm.
I haven’t used a Gale Rider but imagine with a bridle and good self steering it would be ok to go down below? Would you sleep or rest well in that circumstance and would you be happen to let the combination of the GR and self steering do its thing in really bad breaking waves?
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By Tom.Ray - 21 Jan 2024
+xDaria,If you’re happen surfing at 10+ kts in control then I imagine gale rider wouldn’t come out much at the boat has good directional stability plus you’re an experienced helms person. As such I think you’d be better with the JSD since it would be a better solution in a really bad, long last long storm / depression where you could both rest rather than one of you being in the helm.I haven’t used a Gale Rider but imagine with a bridle and good self steering it would be ok to go down below? Would you sleep or rest well in that circumstance and would you be happen to let the combination of the GR and self steering do its thing in really bad breaking waves?
Tim - your points are valid and hence why I am considering making the swap. Gale Rider slows the boat down but doesn't being it to a 2-3 kt crawl. Sleep deprivation can and often does lead to poor decision making. Thanks for your response.
Tom
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By Dick - 21 Jan 2024
+x+x Daria - Thanks for posting this article. A key statement in the article pertains to the purpose of the drogue deployed, speed-limiting like the Gale Rider or medium-pull like the JSD - two different purposes. We have an Outbound 46. She can surf and we have seen speeds of 10+ knots for short periods. We carry a Gale Rider but have never had to deploy it an anger. Ideally we would have the space to carry both the Gale Rider and a JSD but as live aboards, space is super premium so the decision was made to carry the Gale Rider. Having listened in on the JSD webinar, I now question if we should swap out the Gale Rider for a JSD. We're still mulling that one over. Needless to say, prudent seamanship calls for a well thought out strategy and the tools to implement the heavy weather tactics called for in a given situation.
Hi Tom and all,
I agree that the JSD and the Gale Rider are 2 different beasts.
Since starting ocean passages 20+ years ago, I have carried a GR fit for size of my 40-foot boat. It is small and light. Any weight involved is in the rode and chain and are gear I would be carrying anyway for back-up as ground tackle. In that way the GR did not take up any real space nor did it add weight. (With luck and skill, the GR might serve as the best piece of gear to carry if your steering is lost.)
The JSD, when I carried it, was a good deal of additional weight for I carried it on deck ready-to-go where it was continually wet (HM lines will not hold water the way mine did and should be a consideration if buying new). Even dry, it was not easy to move around, let alone find room for on our 40-foot boat and we were live-aboard also. I would think on your 46-foot boat, it would be easier to find room, but that the JSD would be that much bulkier and heavier.
I will be interested in others opinion on this, but my expectation (luckily no experience) was that, after a successful deployment of the JSD (something I did not take for granted) and settled the steering, that we could basically take it easy: kind-of like hove-to.
In contrast, my expectation for the GR was that, after successful deployment, there would need to be active crew involvement when running off in storms of JSD/GR magnitude. (I am assuming a strategy of initially heaving-to until such time as the breaking waves and/or comfort level suggested/demanded running off under a drogue.) This active involvement would be at the helm and would demand skill, anticipation and occasional quick reactions. And stamina, as the storm may go on for many hours or even days.
Clearly the JSD would better keep the stern meeting the waves and make broaches less likely (or not at all likely). With the GR there would need to be active involvement from the crew. I am suspecting that a windvane and or autopilot might not be sufficient for safety with a GR.
I mention this as many boats might not have crew members up to this task. It will be hard work and will benefit from much previous experience on the helm in various conditions, some lousy. And the boat will need 2 crew members with this skill as, to stay sharp, being on the helm will need to be relieved regularly: probably an hour or less as time goes on. This may be more of an issue for those sailing as a couple where the less experienced crew might be more of a danger on the helm than an autopilot or vane.
In that case, consideration might push a boat to opt for a JSD for it “hands off” properties.
Random thoughts, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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