By Sonia.Johal - 22 Oct 2022
Hello Team OCC,
I’m a newbie to the OCC, still an associate and still prepping my boat for her first >1000nm ocean crossing.
My boat is a 2014 Hanse385 sailing sloop with furling jib.
My plan is to follow a downwind trade wind route, while using a “twin head sail” instead of my existing asymmetric spinnaker or standard jib with mainsail.
I have heard of Elstrom’s “Blue water runner” and Northsails’ “Tradewind sail”.
C/ Please would you share your own twin head sail recommendations?
D/ Would a bespoke twin head sail made with used sails be efficient enough?
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By Dick - 22 Oct 2022
+xHello Team OCC, I’m a newbie to the OCC, still an associate and still prepping my boat for her first >1000nm ocean crossing. My boat is a 2014 Hanse385 sailing sloop with furling jib. My plan is to follow a downwind trade wind route, while using a “twin head sail” instead of my existing asymmetric spinnaker or standard jib with mainsail. I have heard of Elstrom’s “Blue water runner” and Northsails’ “Tradewind sail”. C/ Please would you share your own twin head sail recommendations? D/ Would a bespoke twin head sail made with used sails be efficient enough?
Hi Sonia,
I am aware of a number of systems that skippers have made work, but none that I am aware of, have come into common usage. We reviewed a number back in the day, but ended up relying on a tried and true: a poled-out jib and a mainsail for downwind work. We decided our planned ocean and sailing plans were not dominated enough by downwind conditions to warrant using a set-up of twinned headsails.
I am also aware that I know many circumnavigators, and can think of only one who used twinned headsails (and that was 40-50 years ago) and he had a bespoke means of using 2 poles to keep the sails from misbehaving.
All that said, we now have thousands of miles under the keel in poled-out sailing and I have written a “primer” on how we have made poled-out sailing easy and safe on Alchemy which is in these pages under “Taming the Whisker Pole” (to cover downwind sailing, we also have a “primer” on how we make using an asym safe and easy: again, posted in the Forum).
I would be interested in the results of your researches.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By Sonia.Johal - 22 Oct 2022
Thanks Again Dick,
I will read “Taming the Whisker Pole” and your downwind sailing primer for sure!
It will certainly save a few pennies by installing a pole and more efficient than learning to use a new sail I feel.
I will gladly share my findings to this forum if you deem it useful.
Best wishes,
Sonia
SY Salacia
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By simoncurrin - 24 Oct 2022
Sonia,
We had high-clewed twin headsails built for us by Owen Sails in Scotland . They are excellent.
Simon
+xHello Team OCC, I’m a newbie to the OCC, still an associate and still prepping my boat for her first >1000nm ocean crossing. My boat is a 2014 Hanse385 sailing sloop with furling jib. My plan is to follow a downwind trade wind route, while using a “twin head sail” instead of my existing asymmetric spinnaker or standard jib with mainsail. I have heard of Elstrom’s “Blue water runner” and Northsails’ “Tradewind sail”. C/ Please would you share your own twin head sail recommendations? D/ Would a bespoke twin head sail made with used sails be efficient enough?
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By bwallace - 24 Oct 2022
Hi Sonia,
I’m not sure what your stock of sails is, but you could consider the Twistle Rig, An easy to control downwind set up for short handed sailors. You do need Twin Poles, twin luff grooves on the furler, and a special Twistle fitting to mount the poles. Two similar sized Genoas. We were fortunate as we had all the gear except the Twistle fitting which cost about £200. More details available, just wanted to flag up the Twistle for you. Good Luck. Brian S/V Darramy
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By simoncurrin - 24 Oct 2022
Sonia
There’s another thread that au help you. https://forum.oceancruisingclub.org/Topic3270.aspx?PageIndex=2#3541
The rig Brian mentions was written up in Flying Fish - here’s the link https://liveicomgrshot.blob.core.windows.net/occfiles/ffarticles/FF2010-1-simpson2.pdf
Simon
+xHi Sonia, I’m not sure what your stock of sails is, but you could consider the Twistle Rig, An easy to control downwind set up for short handed sailors. You do need Twin Poles, twin luff grooves on the furler, and a special Twistle fitting to mount the poles. Two similar sized Genoas. We were fortunate as we had all the gear except the Twistle fitting which cost about £200. More details available, just wanted to flag up the Twistle for you. Good Luck. Brian S/V Darramy
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By Dick - 24 Oct 2022
+xSonia There’s another thread that au help you. https://forum.oceancruisingclub.org/Topic3270.aspx?PageIndex=2#3541 The rig Brian mentions was written up in Flying Fish - here’s the link https://liveicomgrshot.blob.core.windows.net/occfiles/ffarticles/FF2010-1-simpson2.pdfSimon +xHi Sonia, I’m not sure what your stock of sails is, but you could consider the Twistle Rig, An easy to control downwind set up for short handed sailors. You do need Twin Poles, twin luff grooves on the furler, and a special Twistle fitting to mount the poles. Two similar sized Genoas. We were fortunate as we had all the gear except the Twistle fitting which cost about £200. More details available, just wanted to flag up the Twistle for you. Good Luck. Brian S/V Darramy Hi Sonia, Hi Brian, Good memory, I had forgotten the name. Sonia, you might have better luck googling the rig under “twizzle”. Brian, how many boats doing a cn did you encounter with a twin-sail set-up? Also, Simon brings up a good point with regard to sailing downwind: having the jib clew higher works a ton better for a variety of reasons not least of which: if using a pole, you are far less likely to dip the pole end into the sea if rolling. My best, Dick
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By bwallace - 24 Oct 2022
Hi Simon,
i believe the Twistle rig is different to the Samba rig in that the Twistle fitting is the key factor.
The inboard ends of the poles fit into the Twistle Pole sockets which are not attached directly to the mast. The Twistle fitting is held by an up haul and down haul line, and one down haul led forward, so the poles are not attached directly to the mast, This stops the down wind roll being transmitted through the mast, and thus reduces the roll of the boat.it is easily furled to reduce sail area when the wind speed increases and easily unfurled when wind eases.
Brian
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By simoncurrin - 24 Oct 2022
Brian
Thanks for the clarification
Simon
+xHi Simon, i believe the Twistle rig is different to the Samba rig in that the Twistle fitting is the key factor. The inboard ends of the poles fit into the Twistle Pole sockets which are not attached directly to the mast. The Twistle fitting is held by an up haul and down haul line, and one down haul led forward, so the poles are not attached directly to the mast, This stops the down wind roll being transmitted through the mast, and thus reduces the roll of the boat.it is easily furled to reduce sail area when the wind speed increases and easily unfurled when wind eases. Brian
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By Sonia.Johal - 24 Oct 2022
+xSonia, We had high-clewed twin headsails built for us by Owen Sails in Scotland . They are excellent. Simon +xHello Team OCC, I’m a newbie to the OCC, still an associate and still prepping my boat for her first >1000nm ocean crossing. My boat is a 2014 Hanse385 sailing sloop with furling jib. My plan is to follow a downwind trade wind route, while using a “twin head sail” instead of my existing asymmetric spinnaker or standard jib with mainsail. I have heard of Elstrom’s “Blue water runner” and Northsails’ “Tradewind sail”. C/ Please would you share your own twin head sail recommendations? D/ Would a bespoke twin head sail made with used sails be efficient enough?
Great News Simon,
I know Owen Sails well, as they completed my last rigging check and provided all of Salacia’s canvas work. I shall call Diane for a quote tomorrow.
Thanks again 🫡,
Regards,
Sonia
SY Salacia
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By Sonia.Johal - 24 Oct 2022
Thanks BWallace,
I appreciate your suggestion, as I have not heard of the Twizzle rig before… Simon has also shared a link regarding this rig…. I’m on it thanks 😊
Regards,
Sonia
SY Salacia
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By simoncurrin - 24 Oct 2022
FYI I think Diane has retired but John Grant is always very responsive.
Simon
+x+xSonia, We had high-clewed twin headsails built for us by Owen Sails in Scotland . They are excellent. Simon +xHello Team OCC, I’m a newbie to the OCC, still an associate and still prepping my boat for her first >1000nm ocean crossing. My boat is a 2014 Hanse385 sailing sloop with furling jib. My plan is to follow a downwind trade wind route, while using a “twin head sail” instead of my existing asymmetric spinnaker or standard jib with mainsail. I have heard of Elstrom’s “Blue water runner” and Northsails’ “Tradewind sail”. C/ Please would you share your own twin head sail recommendations? D/ Would a bespoke twin head sail made with used sails be efficient enough? Great News Simon, I know Owen Sails well, as they completed my last rigging check and provided all of Salacia’s canvas work. I shall call Diane for a quote tomorrow. Thanks again 🫡, Regards, Sonia SY Salacia
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By Sonia.Johal - 25 Oct 2022
I shall miss Diane 💕
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By Gary.OGrady - 31 Oct 2022
I’m about to cross the Atlantic too for the first time and have read probably too much on this topic. There are as many opinions as there are sail set ups so it seems to me that the best set up is what suits the crew and boat. Having never done it before I’ll have an array of set ups to try. Twin headsails, Parasailor, poled out genoa and main etc. I think I have all the bases covered except asymmetric and spinnaker so I’ll find out what is best for me. I think there is no correct answer to this other than what’s best for you. If you collect a lot of wind you’ll get there. Not too much though!!
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By Sonia.Johal - 31 Oct 2022
+xI’m about to cross the Atlantic too for the first time and have read probably too much on this topic. There are as many opinions as there are sail set ups so it seems to me that the best set up is what suits the crew and boat. Having never done it before I’ll have an array of set ups to try. Twin headsails, Parasailor, poled out genoa and main etc. I think I have all the bases covered except asymmetric and spinnaker so I’ll find out what is best for me. I think there is no correct answer to this other than what’s best for you. If you collect a lot of wind you’ll get there. Not too much though!!
Thanks Gary,
I completely agree with having a choice, but I do feel a poled out twin sail will be safer for me, as I prefer to use my asymmetric for coastal sailing without any ocean swell.
Fair winds for your crossing and I look forward to reading your OCC blog.
Best wishes,
Sonia
SY Salacia
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By Dick - 31 Oct 2022
+xI’m about to cross the Atlantic too for the first time and have read probably too much on this topic. There are as many opinions as there are sail set ups so it seems to me that the best set up is what suits the crew and boat. Having never done it before I’ll have an array of set ups to try. Twin headsails, Parasailor, poled out genoa and main etc. I think I have all the bases covered except asymmetric and spinnaker so I’ll find out what is best for me. I think there is no correct answer to this other than what’s best for you. If you collect a lot of wind you’ll get there. Not too much though!!
Hi Gary,
I wish you a fabulous trip. Lots of wisdom in what you write.
On the North Atlantic, sail configurations for most boats will not be all that much different than coastal cruising (perhaps more heavy weather stuff): wind from any direction and changeable. That is unless you are doing the Africa to Carib trip where trade winds often prevail. And even there, most boats carry the sails and gear they would for coastal cruising as it is a short period of sailing compared to a cn.
Much of the previous discussion was centered on around-the-world conditions where trade wind sailing definitely prevails and an easy to handle double-headsail rig can work well and may be left up and largely unattended for long periods. This has not been a configuration that has much appeal other than a cn in the trades. And, even then, my observation is that most boats do not have a dedicated trade winds rig.
And, since you flag this being a first Atlantic crossing, please look at my “Key Attitudes in Passage Making” which I wrote initially for the US Naval Academy publication, The Helmsman and has been picked up elsewhere, most recently SAIL magazine. Come back with any thoughts/comments/questions.
It can be found in the forum.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By Dick - 31 Oct 2022
+x+xI’m about to cross the Atlantic too for the first time and have read probably too much on this topic. There are as many opinions as there are sail set ups so it seems to me that the best set up is what suits the crew and boat. Having never done it before I’ll have an array of set ups to try. Twin headsails, Parasailor, poled out genoa and main etc. I think I have all the bases covered except asymmetric and spinnaker so I’ll find out what is best for me. I think there is no correct answer to this other than what’s best for you. If you collect a lot of wind you’ll get there. Not too much though!! Thanks Gary, I completely agree with having a choice, but I do feel a poled out twin sail will be safer for me, as I prefer to use my asymmetric for coastal sailing without any ocean swell. Fair winds for your crossing and I look forward to reading your OCC blog. Best wishes, Sonia SY Salacia
Hi Sonia,
You might still decide that an asym offshore in swell is more than you want to handle, but I suspect you will be interested in my solutions to this challenge. I wrote it up: "An Offshore Asym: Use and Design" and it can be found in the Forum. I have single-handedly used our asym offshore with little worry after incorporating the above suggestions. And, sometimes, an asym is the only way to keep moving under sail on an ocean passage.
Come back with thoughts/questions etc.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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By Sonia.Johal - 1 Nov 2022
+x+x+xI’m about to cross the Atlantic too for the first time and have read probably too much on this topic. There are as many opinions as there are sail set ups so it seems to me that the best set up is what suits the crew and boat. Having never done it before I’ll have an array of set ups to try. Twin headsails, Parasailor, poled out genoa and main etc. I think I have all the bases covered except asymmetric and spinnaker so I’ll find out what is best for me. I think there is no correct answer to this other than what’s best for you. If you collect a lot of wind you’ll get there. Not too much though!! Thanks Gary, I completely agree with having a choice, but I do feel a poled out twin sail will be safer for me, as I prefer to use my asymmetric for coastal sailing without any ocean swell. Fair winds for your crossing and I look forward to reading your OCC blog. Best wishes, Sonia SY Salacia Hi Sonia, You might still decide that an asym offshore in swell is more than you want to handle, but I suspect you will be interested in my solutions to this challenge. I wrote it up: "An Offshore Asym: Use and Design" and it can be found in the Forum. I have single-handedly used our asym offshore with little worry after incorporating the above suggestions. And, sometimes, an asym is the only way to keep moving under sail on an ocean passage. Come back with thoughts/questions etc. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Thanks Dick,
I suspect your article may give me the confidence to also use my asymmetric in light winds with the twin sail furled up.
Grateful for your kind feedback,
Regards,
Sonia
SY Salacia
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By Simon.Glover - 1 Dec 2022
+x+x+x+xI’m about to cross the Atlantic too for the first time and have read probably too much on this topic. There are as many opinions as there are sail set ups so it seems to me that the best set up is what suits the crew and boat. Having never done it before I’ll have an array of set ups to try. Twin headsails, Parasailor, poled out genoa and main etc. I think I have all the bases covered except asymmetric and spinnaker so I’ll find out what is best for me. I think there is no correct answer to this other than what’s best for you. If you collect a lot of wind you’ll get there. Not too much though!! Thanks Gary, I completely agree with having a choice, but I do feel a poled out twin sail will be safer for me, as I prefer to use my asymmetric for coastal sailing without any ocean swell. Fair winds for your crossing and I look forward to reading your OCC blog. Best wishes, Sonia SY Salacia Hi Sonia, You might still decide that an asym offshore in swell is more than you want to handle, but I suspect you will be interested in my solutions to this challenge. I wrote it up: "An Offshore Asym: Use and Design" and it can be found in the Forum. I have single-handedly used our asym offshore with little worry after incorporating the above suggestions. And, sometimes, an asym is the only way to keep moving under sail on an ocean passage. Come back with thoughts/questions etc. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy Thanks Dick, I suspect your article may give me the confidence to also use my asymmetric in light winds with the twin sail furled up. Grateful for your kind feedback, Regards, Sonia SY Salacia At least one commercial loft has created a special double headsail on a single luff-wire {I think I saw it in Yachting Monthly], using lighter than typical sailcloth. Idea is the two sails lap over each other when on the wind, and then are goose-winged downwind. We used a 'conventional' double yankee with a twizzle/twistle setup across the Pacific.Really stable from +/- 140degrees apparent wind angle. Twizzle fitting was made out of rope, effectively a cruciform with loops for uphaul/downhaul & port/starboard poles. Much less rolly than reacting a pole off the mast as the twizzle fitting moves around within the foretriangle as the boat rolls. Biggest benefit (with a roller furler) is rapid sail shortening; just furl 'em in and the poles move forward. Regardless of whether twin poles or twizzle, biggest issue was setting up two sets of sheets, to the extent that I've toyed with the idea of putting double-blocks on the jib-sheet tracks. Another tip if you go for the twizzle setup is make sure the clew comes within reach of the deck; we have a very high clewed yankee so to get a pole to the clew we used an outhaul but it would be much easier if one just hooked the pole-end into the sheet bowline.
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