Hi all,
Of possible interest to those following this stream, I just posted a new topic "Taming the downwind whisker pole".
Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

David,
I post this on behalf of Dick who, like several, is experiencing some Joomla inspired IT issues at the moment.
Simon,
Hi David,
My challenge from the onset was merely that I believed your description of the trials and tribulations attendant to a downwind passage on conventional rigs (sloops, cutters, ketches etc.) was, to my mind, exaggerated, in your effort to extol a rig with which you have clearly much experience and much affection. I believe that downwind passages in these conventional vessels can be accomplished without damage to the vessel (you listed chafe, pole track, etc.) and excessive crew fatigue. I would hope that any writing I do would facilitate that end.
As to the good reasons, I think it best to say that the vast majority of recreational sailing vessels out there are the conventional ones I just listed and that most owners feel they had good reasons for their choices. I write this with the knowledge that this does not “prove” their reasons were good, but, for you to dismiss the choices of such a vast majority of recreational boat owners as a “passive acceptance” of “commercial manufacturers” seems to me another unwise exaggeration.
The above exaggerations I refer to are my opinion and based on my experiences. I would not necessarily respond at all, but as they were publicly expressed and portrayed a dismal conclusion of downwind sailing on conventional sailing vessels, I worried the comments would discourage others from honing their skills in this important area or see miserable trips as inevitable. I in no way wished to do a “compare and contrast” for which I am ill equipped, but to encourage those doing downwind passages to find solutions to the challenges presented by their particular vessel and their particular crew on their chosen vessel.
My best, Dick

test

still unable to post even 1 paragraph

this is a test as I have been unable to post

OK, Dick, I 'll take the bait, though I probably shouldn 't.

How naive of me. I thought that if we could get downwind, and also across the wind, in the safest, fastest and easiest fashion, and as well as that, could get upwind in the safest and easiest fashion, but sometimes just a few per cent slower than a bermudan boat with a well shaped headsail - then we 'd cracked it. But apparently not. Unless we 've also spent time "taming the downwind pole", we 've not made a worthwhile passage.

Consider for a moment, Dick, the weaker crews: the singlehanders, the ageing couples, the families with young children to look after, when a line squall strikes. Their strength, stamina and courage have limits. Foredeck work in bad conditions probes those limits, quite unnecessarily in my view. Why should they have to do things the hard way, when they could do them the easy way?

Just what are these "good reasons" that people choose a "conventional rig" (whatever that is)? I can only think of bad ones, such as passively accepting what the commercial manufacturers choose to give them. Please enlighten me.

Hi David,
Whereas you may be absolutely correct in contending that junk rigs get you downwind in the safest, fastest and easiest fashion, the vast majority of the sailing world, with good reason, will be sailing more conventional rigs. I would also like to challenge that, to have a good downwind passage, one needs, in your words, “a sufficient supply of strength, stamina, courage and ability to fix rig problems” with its implication that all those admirable attributes will be amply exercised in any downwind passage of length.
I have attempted to attach some writing of mine on taming the downwind pole, but have so far failed to negotiate the computer’s demands. I will persist.
My best, Dick

Dick, this topic started with a question about how best to rig headsails in such a way as to mitigate all the problems that arise when they are used for a purpose for which they are not optimal (chafe, fatigue, unfair loadings causing track damage etc) - long downwind passages . They are good for going to windward, but poor for sailing on other points. I would have to agree that any boat can have a good downwind passage across the Pacific - so long as that boat 's crew has a sufficient supply of strength, stamina, courage and ability to fix rig problems. Where those qualities are in short supply, there are better ways of sailing downwind than with poled out headsails. I just ease the sheet and relax!

Hi David and all,
While being clear that some boats have points of sail where they revel (and others points of sail where they wallow), I don’t believe any boat has a lock on its passengers having a good downwind passage. It is hard to think of any element of a boat that is not a compromise.
That said there are always improvements that can be made. For my part (on a cutter rigged boat with the mast almost amidships) downwind sailing got much safer and easier with the addition of a carbon fiber whisker pole (20 feet long, weighs 7 kg or so, used for 15+ years in winds to 50+kn) and, what I call, an offshore asymmetrical spinnaker. The asym, I have written about in the forum, not sure about the pole. The other element that has improved things is my leading headsail is a jib topsail and its higher clew facilitates downwind sailing impressively.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

Sorry, I can 't resist any longer. I just have to share with you a paragraph from the latest Junk Rig Association magazine. I sold my boat Tystie (junk rigged ketch) to Martin, in New Zealand, as I was feeling that I had reached the end of my long distance cruising days. I 'd sailed her from NZ to Alaska and back again, singlehanded, as a finale, and that seemed like enough miles covered.

Anyway, Martin, who had jumped at the chance to buy Tystie, as he 'd been struggling with the pole on his Endurance 37 bermudan cutter and knew from bitter experience that sailing downwind with poled out headsails was for masochists, writes:

"A strong southerly was forecast so it was decided that Tystie should take advantage of it to return home. There was much reefing and unreefing with Tystie running wing and wong before the wind, with up to four panels reefed in the main and three in the mizzen. It was wet and windy, so much time was spent below eating, drinking coffee, and marvelling at how Tystie was sailing herself through some fairly rough conditions. In fact it was the fastest sail I have ever had in any boat. Just before my Navionics stopped recording the day 's track I saw that she had covered 72.5M in nine hours. An average of eight knots! The incredible safety of the rig was emphasised to me that day, in that, if I did leave it a little late to reduce sail it was easy to rectify from the companionway. Furthermore, when she did broach to when over pressed, there was no danger of gybing because the rig will sail so readily by the lee. There was no dangerous foredeck work with poles 6m long, and no heart stopping moments rigging preventers. I anchored off Norsand Boatyard in good spirits, feeling very pleased with my boat’s performance, after a ten hour day anchor to anchor. Had this been done with a pointy rig I would have arrived exhausted, after a tense nerve-racking day, tending to a labour-intensive and frightening rig. Sadly, most of my pointy rig friends find impossible to believe that I had enjoyed such a fantastic run in conditions that would most probably have kept them waiting at anchor for better weather."