+x

 

Daria Blackwell - 7 Jun 2022

Hi Daria.
Prior to and during the 2 years after our LiFePO4 (LFP) battery installation we have done a lot of reading about this technology, and in particular the risk of fire.  I hope you are aware that the surfboards you mention, laptops and even cell phones have a different lithium technology than what cruisers typically install on their boats.  According to what the experts say these other lithium types are far more apt to burst into flames than the LFP cells.  I am not aware of any LFP batteries that have spontaneously caused a boat fire.  Poor wiring, electronic equipment failures or improper use burning insulation and flammable nearby material is the common cause of so called lithium boat fires.  The cells and material inside are not really flammable and are very stable even with increasing heat.   In fact with reasonable installation precautions they are less likely to cause a problem than their lead acid brothers.

The problem is that there have been some spectacular fires on boats with LFP batteries caused by some of the things mentioned above but blamed on the LFP batteries themselves.  And now the insurance companies have latched onto that and are looking for ways to reduce their risk. 

We are comfortable with our installation because we did the research and the installation ourselves.  We think that is far safer than not knowing what to do and hiring an installer.  Once the installer is gone you are on your own if there is a problem.  So our bottom line advice is if you are not willing to learn how to do a proper LFP installation install lead acid instead.
Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws

+x

 

SoggyPaws - 1 Aug 2022

+x

 

Daria Blackwell - 7 Jun 2022

Hi Daria.
Prior to and during the 2 years after our LiFePO4 (LFP) battery installation we have done a lot of reading about this technology, and in particular the risk of fire.  I hope you are aware that the surfboards you mention, laptops and even cell phones have a different lithium technology than what cruisers typically install on their boats.  According to what the experts say these other lithium types are far more apt to burst into flames than the LFP cells.  I am not aware of any LFP batteries that have spontaneously caused a boat fire.  Poor wiring, electronic equipment failures or improper use burning insulation and flammable nearby material is the common cause of so called lithium boat fires.  The cells and material inside are not really flammable and are very stable even with increasing heat.   In fact with reasonable installation precautions they are less likely to cause a problem than their lead acid brothers.

The problem is that there have been some spectacular fires on boats with LFP batteries caused by some of the things mentioned above but blamed on the LFP batteries themselves.  And now the insurance companies have latched onto that and are looking for ways to reduce their risk. 

We are comfortable with our installation because we did the research and the installation ourselves.  We think that is far safer than not knowing what to do and hiring an installer.  Once the installer is gone you are on your own if there is a problem.  So our bottom line advice is if you are not willing to learn how to do a proper LFP installation install lead acid instead.
Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws

Hi all,
The ABYC has recently put out their guidelines for a lithium install and the requisite safety measures that are necessary. Those who are in the know and who I trust suggest that these guidelines are a good start, but that they have been too influenced by those who have a vested interest in the lithium industry: But that the guidelines are a good start.
It seems likely that the insurance companies will latch onto these guidelines (at least for US boats) as their criteria for insurance.
I would be interested in hearing feedback from those who have installed lithium as to what they think of the guidelines. Unfortunately, I do not have a url for them.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

Looks like the standard costs $75 unless you’re a member of the abyc. Perhaps the OCC is - or would be willing to shell out $75???

Bill Balme

Hi Dick.  If you join FB Group Lithium Batteries on a Boat you can see the summary of the ABYC lithium guide lines.  Use the search function.  It was discussed just a couple of weeks ago.
Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws

+x

 

SoggyPaws - 14 Aug 2022

Hi Dick.  If you join FB Group Lithium Batteries on a Boat you can see the summary of the ABYC lithium guide lines.  Use the search function.  It was discussed just a couple of weeks ago.
Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws

Hi Dave,
Good info: thanks for the heads-up.
For those, like me, who don't do FB, an alternaive is to join ABYC as a non-commercial recreational member. This can be a great resource to any mariner, but might be particularly helpful to any skipper who is doing significant projects on his/her boat. I also ask at every boatyard I use (in the US) whether the workers in the field I am using (say electrical work) are ABYC certufied. Not sure whether there is a UK or EU equivalent equivalent to this certification. Too many "specialists" in the boatyards I have used are "on the job" trained, which sometimes is fine, but often is not and are no better (and sometimes worse) than a reasonably handy skipper who can read directions.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

Having reviewed the abyc guidelines as published in FB, it appears that Toodle-oo! - with her Lynx BMS is 100% compliant! Yay!!!

Bill Balme

Hi Dick,
I think $75 US is a bit steep for that kind of thing.  Maybe OCC would do that for those that are not on the Lithium on a Boat FB group.  Since it is brand new I wouldn't be surprised to see the requirements on other internet sites soon.

Having been through this as a DIY project and seen results of several projects that did not turn out so well done by a 'qualified' installer, I highly recommend doing this yourself or with help if needed.  There are just too many options for equipment and too much that can go wrong if the owner does not take the time to learn how to do a proper installation.  Well done Bill!

I have just written a long article for Flying Fish that will cover this and our experience with the rest of the project.  Hopefully that will help someone.

Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws 

MIN reports that lithium-ion batteries have been the suspected cause of notable marine fires in recent years. That may not bode well for insurance cover. 

Vice Commodore, OCC 

Is that perhaps a little bit of a misleading conclusion?

The Porrimar is a hugely different boat to anything we sail and in only the last sentence does the report make any link to Lithium Ion batteries.

The Porrimar has 8 tons of batteries of unspecified chemistry - that’s a massive source of energy no matter what chemistry - so perhaps it’s a little premature to blame the batteries - and if they were the cause, it would be nice to know the specific chemistry involved.

When I replaced the batteries on Toodle-oo!, I removed 600# of Lead acid and replaced it with about 120# of LFP. By my estimation, 8 tons of similar batteries would amount to around 40,000 AH (12V) - it’s not comparable in any way to a cruising sailboat.

It’s great that the abyc has come out with the guidelines that they have - which seem to be reasonably achievable without undue cost - which hopefully the insurance industry will latch onto.

Our change to LFP has been the single best upgrade I’ve made to our boat - and is being adopted by a large and growing percentage of the cruising population.

Bill Balme

+x

 

Bill Balme - 15 Aug 2022

Is that perhaps a little bit of a misleading conclusion?The Porrimar is a hugely different boat to anything we sail and in only the last sentence does the report make any link to Lithium Ion batteries. The Porrimar has 8 tons of batteries of unspecified chemistry - that’s a massive source of energy no matter what chemistry - so perhaps it’s a little premature to blame the batteries - and if they were the cause, it would be nice to know the specific chemistry involved. When I replaced the batteries on Toodle-oo!, I removed 600# of Lead acid and replaced it with about 120# of LFP. By my estimation, 8 tons of similar batteries would amount to around 40,000 AH (12V) - it’s not comparable in any way to a cruising sailboat. It’s great that the abyc has come out with the guidelines that they have - which seem to be reasonably achievable without undue cost - which hopefully the insurance industry will latch onto. Our change to LFP has been the single best upgrade I’ve made to our boat - and is being adopted by a large and growing percentage of the cruising population.

Hi Bill,
I completely agree with you.  There is a big difference between these super yacht lithium battery systems and ours.  For instance the battery  capacities are much larger and Porrimar's decks are entirely covered in solar panels producing many thousands of amps.  But the cause of the fire could well have been due to their toys being charged rather than the ship's batteries.  Given the size and cost of that boat its electrical system was probably very well done with quality equipment.  Maybe not true for the toys and who knows which lithium technology was used in them. 
In the Min article on the Porrimar fire that Daria mentions there is a link to an earlier article discussing several other notable fires attributed to lithium batteries.  It is here:
https://marineindustrynews.co.uk/insurance-refusals-on-lithium-ion-boats/
Although there is no mention of the specific lithium technology responsible for the fires, most are attributed to charging devices other than the ship's batteries.  There are some very interesting comments made in the article that are worth considering by anyone installing LiFePO4 (LFP) in their boats.  All the fires I read about appear to be caused during charging.  This is where a quality BMS and properly sized relays should be able to save your bacon, especially if you are using LFP!  Another reason to have done the research and know what you or your installer are doing.  Using inexpensive LFP batteries sealed with an internal MOSFET BMS inside is asking for trouble especially in our marine environment.
And then there is the insurance issue.  It is certainly worth checking to see what your insurance underwriter has to say about a LFP install.  Some say nothing, some require professional installation, some reduce the coverage and still others will not insure boats with lithium batteries.  In my mind the reasonable thing to require of an owner would be that any install must meet ABYC and manufacturer requirements.
Lots to ponder.
Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws