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dsmith - 3/3/2020

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Dick - 2/27/2020

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Philip Heaton - 2/27/2020

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Philip Heaton - 2/27/2020

Hi all,

Dick you have masterfully and eloquently expressed by views.  The helm can see our chartplotter which also displays radar, if actually steering the boat.  This is vital in fog - when we crawled into Cape Town harbour in thick fog (the port was closed to commercial traffic but we were given permission to enter) we had waypoints all the way to the visitors' berth at Royal Cape YC and it was essential that we had put in a route so detailed.  The radar of course was an added feature for security.
I fully acknowledge that creating a route directly on to the chart plotter can be a pain but I try to minimise just how many devices are involved in doing a job, as I am not sure every techie advance necessarily makes things easier or simpler.  At the risk of thread drift, to illustrate this, back in the mid-noughties when Minnie B was being built the latest music technology was the iPod.  We bought one of those turntables for digitising the music on our LPs and CDs and loaded it all on the iPod.  This has been our source of music on the boat since then. Recently we bought a shore base as we are now cruising 7-8 months rather than the 10-11 months previously.  So we wanted music in the apartment.  Simple eh?  Buy one of those super Bose speakers with an iPod docking facility.  Pop along to the Bose shop.  Nope, they have stopped making them but they do have a super Bose speaker at £300 that operates with Bluetooth. Being a bit slow, we ask for an explanation of how this would work - the answer was to turn on the PC which also holds the music, connect it to the smartphone, and then connect the phone to the speaker  ... we went on ebay and bought a used speaker with iPod docking facility for £50.

Sorry I seem to have a written cold - 'by' should be 'my'

Hi Phil,
I agree completely that every techie “advancement” should be met with skepticism. Many do not advance safety on a vessel and I find some of the hype more in service of lining the pockets of vendors than contributing to the operation of the boat. I remember a conversation with someone that started out saying that he decided against a few extra hundreds for the larger anchor and went on to wax eloquent about the integrated electronics just installed which had to set him back many thousands.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

As someone who uses a chart plotter/integrated ECDIS system, commercially (as a ships Master) on a daily basis, I have to disagree completely with what you are saying. 
Used correctly even the cheapest standalone chart plotter with a GPS input, will give you better, live, information than transfering Lat/LON to a paper chart.
In a planning mode, you can set safe and shallow depths, and many other vessel specific parameters, so when you set routes up, it will automatically show dangers. Add in AIS and/or a RADAR overlay and you have a fantastic tool giving you plenty of reliable information. 
Get some training, if you can afford it, get yourself on an STCW Generic ECDIS course, it's certainly money well spent and you won't regret it.
The thing to remember about about ANY electrictronic navigation aid is simply 'Garbage in; garbage out.'
The USCG & MCA, encourage the switch to integrated ECDIS systems, they are used safely, by 1,000s of commercial vessels from 500t to 250,000t daily and without incident. 
Rather than make a glib statement, saying they do not enhance safety, and only make a profit for the manufacturer; I suggest you learn how to use ENCs and plotters correctly.

Hi DSmith,
There really has been crossed wires.
For me, I agree with everything you say about plotters and the other devices you mention.
And in reviewing previous posts, I do not read anyone espousing paper charts and the hand plotting of l/l or of doing plotting the traditional way, so I am unsure where that challenge comes from. I believe knowledge of traditional methods should be known and occasionally practiced, but in everyday cruising life, a computer plotting system with good software (or a chart plotter) connected to GPS is far quicker, more accurate and safer, and has amply established its value on a cruising boat, in my estimation
That said, I do look with some skepticism at some of the newer techie “advances” and suggest waiting till these devices have thoroughly proven themselves in the field. Many of these advances have improved safety markedly for cruising boats, but some of these “advances”, such as the kind of integration where chart plotter is connected with autopilot (so turns are made automatically as a waypoint is reached), I still have reservations about.
I try hard to be clear and measured in my writing, and, in review, I find I do not experience as “glib” (insincere and shallow) the writing referred to. Similarly, I am uncomfortable with the suggestion that I need to learn electronic navigation “correctly”. Please feel free to challenge my opinions, but, for me at least, glib comes closer to name calling than I wish to see in our club’s Forum.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

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Dick - 2/27/2020

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Philip Heaton - 2/27/2020

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Philip Heaton - 2/27/2020

Hi all,

Dick you have masterfully and eloquently expressed by views.  The helm can see our chartplotter which also displays radar, if actually steering the boat.  This is vital in fog - when we crawled into Cape Town harbour in thick fog (the port was closed to commercial traffic but we were given permission to enter) we had waypoints all the way to the visitors' berth at Royal Cape YC and it was essential that we had put in a route so detailed.  The radar of course was an added feature for security.
I fully acknowledge that creating a route directly on to the chart plotter can be a pain but I try to minimise just how many devices are involved in doing a job, as I am not sure every techie advance necessarily makes things easier or simpler.  At the risk of thread drift, to illustrate this, back in the mid-noughties when Minnie B was being built the latest music technology was the iPod.  We bought one of those turntables for digitising the music on our LPs and CDs and loaded it all on the iPod.  This has been our source of music on the boat since then. Recently we bought a shore base as we are now cruising 7-8 months rather than the 10-11 months previously.  So we wanted music in the apartment.  Simple eh?  Buy one of those super Bose speakers with an iPod docking facility.  Pop along to the Bose shop.  Nope, they have stopped making them but they do have a super Bose speaker at £300 that operates with Bluetooth. Being a bit slow, we ask for an explanation of how this would work - the answer was to turn on the PC which also holds the music, connect it to the smartphone, and then connect the phone to the speaker  ... we went on ebay and bought a used speaker with iPod docking facility for £50.

Sorry I seem to have a written cold - 'by' should be 'my'

Hi Phil,
I agree completely that every techie “advancement” should be met with skepticism. Many do not advance safety on a vessel and I find some of the hype more in service of lining the pockets of vendors than contributing to the operation of the boat. I remember a conversation with someone that started out saying that he decided against a few extra hundreds for the larger anchor and went on to wax eloquent about the integrated electronics just installed which had to set him back many thousands.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

As someone who uses a chart plotter/integrated ECDIS system, commercially (as a ships Master) on a daily basis, I have to disagree completely with what you are saying. 
Used correctly even the cheapest standalone chart plotter with a GPS input, will give you better, live, information than transfering Lat/LON to a paper chart.
In a planning mode, you can set safe and shallow depths, and many other vessel specific parameters, so when you set routes up, it will automatically show dangers. Add in AIS and/or a RADAR overlay and you have a fantastic tool giving you plenty of reliable information. 
Get some training, if you can afford it, get yourself on an STCW Generic ECDIS course, it's certainly money well spent and you won't regret it.
The thing to remember about about ANY electrictronic navigation aid is simply 'Garbage in; garbage out.'
The USCG & MCA, encourage the switch to integrated ECDIS systems, they are used safely, by 1,000s of commercial vessels from 500t to 250,000t daily and without incident. 
Rather than make a glib statement, saying they do not enhance safety, and only make a profit for the manufacturer; I suggest you learn how to use ENCs and plotters correctly.

Hi John,
I have two chart plotters B&G Zeus 2. One on the navigation table and the other in the cockpit. The cockpit chart plotter is very useful when you are coastal navigating, entering/exiting inlets, etc. Offshore, you really can live with the inside one, the chart plotter is good to see AIS targets, or squalls by using the radar, or downloading grib files to play with the weather and your route.
Gian Luca
s/v Vivaldi

+x

 

Philip Heaton - 2/27/2020

+x

 

Philip Heaton - 2/27/2020

Hi all,

Dick you have masterfully and eloquently expressed by views.  The helm can see our chartplotter which also displays radar, if actually steering the boat.  This is vital in fog - when we crawled into Cape Town harbour in thick fog (the port was closed to commercial traffic but we were given permission to enter) we had waypoints all the way to the visitors' berth at Royal Cape YC and it was essential that we had put in a route so detailed.  The radar of course was an added feature for security.
I fully acknowledge that creating a route directly on to the chart plotter can be a pain but I try to minimise just how many devices are involved in doing a job, as I am not sure every techie advance necessarily makes things easier or simpler.  At the risk of thread drift, to illustrate this, back in the mid-noughties when Minnie B was being built the latest music technology was the iPod.  We bought one of those turntables for digitising the music on our LPs and CDs and loaded it all on the iPod.  This has been our source of music on the boat since then. Recently we bought a shore base as we are now cruising 7-8 months rather than the 10-11 months previously.  So we wanted music in the apartment.  Simple eh?  Buy one of those super Bose speakers with an iPod docking facility.  Pop along to the Bose shop.  Nope, they have stopped making them but they do have a super Bose speaker at £300 that operates with Bluetooth. Being a bit slow, we ask for an explanation of how this would work - the answer was to turn on the PC which also holds the music, connect it to the smartphone, and then connect the phone to the speaker  ... we went on ebay and bought a used speaker with iPod docking facility for £50.

Sorry I seem to have a written cold - 'by' should be 'my'

Hi Phil,
I agree completely that every techie “advancement” should be met with skepticism. Many do not advance safety on a vessel and I find some of the hype more in service of lining the pockets of vendors than contributing to the operation of the boat. I remember a conversation with someone that started out saying that he decided against a few extra hundreds for the larger anchor and went on to wax eloquent about the integrated electronics just installed which had to set him back many thousands.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

+x

 

Philip Heaton - 2/27/2020

Hi all,

Dick you have masterfully and eloquently expressed by views.  The helm can see our chartplotter which also displays radar, if actually steering the boat.  This is vital in fog - when we crawled into Cape Town harbour in thick fog (the port was closed to commercial traffic but we were given permission to enter) we had waypoints all the way to the visitors' berth at Royal Cape YC and it was essential that we had put in a route so detailed.  The radar of course was an added feature for security.
I fully acknowledge that creating a route directly on to the chart plotter can be a pain but I try to minimise just how many devices are involved in doing a job, as I am not sure every techie advance necessarily makes things easier or simpler.  At the risk of thread drift, to illustrate this, back in the mid-noughties when Minnie B was being built the latest music technology was the iPod.  We bought one of those turntables for digitising the music on our LPs and CDs and loaded it all on the iPod.  This has been our source of music on the boat since then. Recently we bought a shore base as we are now cruising 7-8 months rather than the 10-11 months previously.  So we wanted music in the apartment.  Simple eh?  Buy one of those super Bose speakers with an iPod docking facility.  Pop along to the Bose shop.  Nope, they have stopped making them but they do have a super Bose speaker at £300 that operates with Bluetooth. Being a bit slow, we ask for an explanation of how this would work - the answer was to turn on the PC which also holds the music, connect it to the smartphone, and then connect the phone to the speaker  ... we went on ebay and bought a used speaker with iPod docking facility for £50.

Sorry I seem to have a written cold - 'by' should be 'my'

Hi all,

Dick you have masterfully and eloquently expressed by views.  The helm can see our chartplotter which also displays radar, if actually steering the boat.  This is vital in fog - when we crawled into Cape Town harbour in thick fog (the port was closed to commercial traffic but we were given permission to enter) we had waypoints all the way to the visitors' berth at Royal Cape YC and it was essential that we had put in a route so detailed.  The radar of course was an added feature for security.
I fully acknowledge that creating a route directly on to the chart plotter can be a pain but I try to minimise just how many devices are involved in doing a job, as I am not sure every techie advance necessarily makes things easier or simpler.  At the risk of thread drift, to illustrate this, back in the mid-noughties when Minnie B was being built the latest music technology was the iPod.  We bought one of those turntables for digitising the music on our LPs and CDs and loaded it all on the iPod.  This has been our source of music on the boat since then. Recently we bought a shore base as we are now cruising 7-8 months rather than the 10-11 months previously.  So we wanted music in the apartment.  Simple eh?  Buy one of those super Bose speakers with an iPod docking facility.  Pop along to the Bose shop.  Nope, they have stopped making them but they do have a super Bose speaker at £300 that operates with Bluetooth. Being a bit slow, we ask for an explanation of how this would work - the answer was to turn on the PC which also holds the music, connect it to the smartphone, and then connect the phone to the speaker  ... we went on ebay and bought a used speaker with iPod docking facility for £50.

+x

 

dsmith - 2/25/2020

Having a plotter, or a repeater at the helm or under a spray hood (I'd class both as being at the helm, if the Helmsman can see it.) , is a great benefit to the Helmsman.

Not only can they see the course to steer, they have a live picture of what is actually happening. If they are getting off course by wind, tide or both, they can see it and adjust accordingly; rather than doing 30 min or hourly adjustments if you need to plot it on a paper chart. 

If you're lucky enough to have an intergrated RADAR, even better for getting into those cosy little anchorages or harbours at night or bad vis'.

I guess it's a case of what you're used to, and how competent your are with using it. I'm lucky to have done an ECDIS course and  I use ECDIS in work every day.

If it's set up correctly and your electronics, batteries, genset, etc are up to it, you don't need to carry paper charts except for emergencies. 

Hi DSmith,
Thanks for weighing in with a differing take on this issue. I agree that being able to see a plotter from the helm is of great benefit: improves safety. I also agree completely about having access to being able to see a radar display from the helm: mine is visible from the helm and is under the dodger. I also suspect that luck played little role in your having an ECDIS course under your belt: rather good judgment on your part in choosing the course in preparation for your cruising.
I do disagree with seeing the plotter at the helm as the same as a plotter under the dodger. I will elaborate my reasons for thinking the chart plotter at the helm is not the wisest location on an offshore sailboat (and actually, to a lesser extent, on any sailboat).
Neither Phillip nor I are against being able to see the chart plotter from the helm: quite the opposite. I can see mine under the dodger quite easily accomplishing all the visual cues that you so correctly value in your post. Phillip also mentions his being visible by those in the cockpit. So, if one can see the chart plotter under the dodger from the helm, the only reason to have it at the helm is to do navigation and plotting: to work its controls. Possibly there are really big boats where helm position is too far a distance to see a plotter under the dodger, but I have seen this accomplished on boats in the mid 50s in length.
For most far-ranging boats, the helm is rarely manned. The vast majority of our mileage is accomplished with no one at the helm. I believe this to be the case for most passage makers and even, most coastal cruisers. An under dodger chart plotter is much easier to monitor and manipulate from one’s usually watch position sitting in the protection of the dodger.
Anyone at the helm actively driving the boat should never have interference with his/her situational awareness, most of which should be directed outside the boat with occasional glances at the chart plotter. Doing any navigation plotting interferes dramatically with situational awareness. This is fine in open water with no obstacles about, but active adjustments and navigation decisions are often made when entering a harbor, transiting a passage or in the vicinity of obstacles. Think, perhaps, of the danger inherent in handheld cell phone manipulation while driving.
Lastly, instrument manufacturers have come a good way towards making equipment truly waterproof, but having such an important piece of kit and its many electrical and data exchange connections exposed to rain/sun etc. and to the assaults of salt water and seas when offshore seems to be asking for trouble somewhere down the line. Then there is the ease with which it might be stolen, something I think about even in the more hidden area under the dodger where my plotter lives.
So, in the end, I see no advantage to a helm position plotter and lots of potential disadvantages.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

Having a plotter, or a repeater at the helm or under a spray hood (I'd class both as being at the helm, if the Helmsman can see it.) , is a great benefit to the Helmsman.

Not only can they see the course to steer, they have a live picture of what is actually happening. If they are getting off course by wind, tide or both, they can see it and adjust accordingly; rather than doing 30 min or hourly adjustments if you need to plot it on a paper chart. 

If you're lucky enough to have an intergrated RADAR, even better for getting into those cosy little anchorages or harbours at night or bad vis'.

I guess it's a case of what you're used to, and how competent your are with using it. I'm lucky to have done an ECDIS course and  I use ECDIS in work every day.

If it's set up correctly and your electronics, batteries, genset, etc are up to it, you don't need to carry paper charts except for emergencies. 

+x

 

Philip Heaton - 2/25/2020

We have a B&G Zeus2, well, two actually that are connected - one at the chart table and one under the sprayhood (best location for when the weather is inclement and can be seen easily by all the folks in the cockpit - don't understand why you need a chartplotter at the helm).  We do our plotting on the chartplotter - I thought the clue was in the name but then ....  We used to have C-Map charts on our Simrad but it died a couple of years ago and now use Navionics.

Hi Phillip,
Sounds like a very workable system. Agree completely about having a chartplotter under the dodger rather than at the helm. Some chartplotters make plotting easy, some are much more awkward, but none, I think, approach the speed, ease and accuracy of doing navigation with good software on a reasonably fast computer using a mouse.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

We have a B&G Zeus2, well, two actually that are connected - one at the chart table and one under the sprayhood (best location for when the weather is inclement and can be seen easily by all the folks in the cockpit - don't understand why you need a chartplotter at the helm).  We do our plotting on the chartplotter - I thought the clue was in the name but then ....  We used to have C-Map charts on our Simrad but it died a couple of years ago and now use Navionics.