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David.Wells - 9/17/2020

Alex - sorry to be slow contributing to this topic. In my misspent youth I was privileged to work for Ted Hood in the 80's, and put many  thousands of miles on different Hood centerboard designs at 46', 53', and 87'. All his designs had light foam core boards with just enough weight so there was no question it would go down - a few hundred pounds at the tip. In general the boards had a symmetrical foil shape so they would develop some lift with headway and leeway. With apparent wind aft of 60, we tended to mostly put the board away, or play with them a little to trim the helm and steering response. Of course the 87' had three boards - main, trim, and a dagger in the rudder; made for many interesting combinations allowing much control over the boat's handling. In general on the boats if any board clunked, it's not working, put it away. Closer than 60 the board would make a big difference to leeway and the way the boat paid attention to the helm. All these designs had a soft link - a wire to lift/drop the board. Because of this we could put the board down a foot or so when exploring someplace shallow at low speed - if you hit the board, you can crank it up and back up, easy. Not so easy with a hard link design like a mechanical lever or hydraulic cylinder. The cases were all carefully designed for fit so the board would generally be silent at anchor - nothing worse than a clunking board in the case when you roll a bit at anchor. They are definitely an added maintenance item, and a source of potential leaks. In 2019 we twice ran across the 87' ketch I used to run and they had to haul the boat twice in eight months trying to get the main board case/pin/wire to stop leaking. Overall I think the shallow draft was worth the added nuisance. I love my cat that draws 1.5m with the asymmetrical daggers up, and 3m down. Better not hit anything with a daggerboard though, that won't end well. Bottom line, if you want both skinny water and upwind performance, it's a good solution. Wing keels are also a decent solution - the Contest line of boats has been using them quite a lot, worth a look. Wings do introduce other challenges around grounding and etc. Scheel keels are a distant third for me. Hope this helps, happy to give more detail if wanted. 

Hi David,
Much wisdom and experience in your writing. Thanks for sharing and with such detail.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

Alex - sorry to be slow contributing to this topic. In my misspent youth I was privileged to work for Ted Hood in the 80's, and put many  thousands of miles on different Hood centerboard designs at 46', 53', and 87'. All his designs had light foam core boards with just enough weight so there was no question it would go down - a few hundred pounds at the tip. In general the boards had a symmetrical foil shape so they would develop some lift with headway and leeway. With apparent wind aft of 60, we tended to mostly put the board away, or play with them a little to trim the helm and steering response. Of course the 87' had three boards - main, trim, and a dagger in the rudder; made for many interesting combinations allowing much control over the boat's handling. In general on the boats if any board clunked, it's not working, put it away. Closer than 60 the board would make a big difference to leeway and the way the boat paid attention to the helm. All these designs had a soft link - a wire to lift/drop the board. Because of this we could put the board down a foot or so when exploring someplace shallow at low speed - if you hit the board, you can crank it up and back up, easy. Not so easy with a hard link design like a mechanical lever or hydraulic cylinder. The cases were all carefully designed for fit so the board would generally be silent at anchor - nothing worse than a clunking board in the case when you roll a bit at anchor. They are definitely an added maintenance item, and a source of potential leaks. In 2019 we twice ran across the 87' ketch I used to run and they had to haul the boat twice in eight months trying to get the main board case/pin/wire to stop leaking. Overall I think the shallow draft was worth the added nuisance. I love my cat that draws 1.5m with the asymmetrical daggers up, and 3m down. Better not hit anything with a daggerboard though, that won't end well. Bottom line, if you want both skinny water and upwind performance, it's a good solution. Wing keels are also a decent solution - the Contest line of boats has been using them quite a lot, worth a look. Wings do introduce other challenges around grounding and etc. Scheel keels are a distant third for me. Hope this helps, happy to give more detail if wanted. 

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Alex Blackwell - 7/16/2020

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Rod.Halling - 7/15/2020

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Alex Blackwell - 4/26/2019

Has anyone got good, bad or ugly experience with shallow draft yachts?
We are looking at doing more coastal cruising and want to get into places with skinny water (our currrent boat draws 8.5 feet. Ovnis have come up as have other makes.

Hi Alex, I owned an Ovni 385 from new for seven years and concur with Phil. She was a really good boat, but for us the lack of pointing ability (especially in the Med where the wind always seems to be on the nose) became a bit of an issue. The upsides are legion - sitting on the beach in the Scilly Isles, when all the deep keelers are wobbling about at anchor in the "roads", flying downwind with the plate up, easy fitment of "green energy" on the aft wing... We certainly did "go aground" a fair bit - mostly when we meant to, but sometimes just taking a chance, but never worried about landing on a rock as the bottom is SOLID aluminium - 10mm thick. If you are interested, talk to Stephen & Francine Johnson of North Sea Maritime - www.northseamaritime.co.uk - they are the importers and experts for UK and Ireland. They usually have a range of used boats and are completely trustworthy - lovely people.

We have gone the opposite way to you - if you remember, we were interested in Aleria before you put her on the market. We need something larger and went for an Oyster 55 (1995) just before you put Aleria on sale. Very happy with a boat that can tack through 90 degrees in 50 knots... Loads of room for the nippers too!   

If you don't fancy an Ovni, the Southerly boats seem to point somewhat better, but lack the incredible strength of an all aluminium design. "Distant Shores" on Youtube seem to have loved all their Southerlys. Best of luck with the search! If you're ever in Devon/Cornwall, drop me a line - it would be lovely to meet up.

All the best,

Rod

Thank you very much, Rod
yes I certainly remember you, but i did not know you had owned an Ovni.
as a very close friend chided me, when I lamented the Ovni not pointing well: "Gentlemen don't sail upwind". ;)

Hi Alex,
Maybe Gentlemen don't sail upwind... but it seems that some of the nicest destinations ARE upwind - especially after a long downwind ocean passage! Perhaps I'm just a rubbish sailor, but I could never get our Ovni to tack through less than 100 degrees even in pretty flat conditions. She flew downwind though - often surfing at 12-13 knots.
I guess that "you pays your money and takes your choice"! Best of luck with the sale of Aleria and the fun prospect of buying another boat. Rod
 

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John.Ferguson - 6/16/2020

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Alex Blackwell - 4/26/2019

Has anyone got good, bad or ugly experience with shallow draft yachts?
We are looking at doing more coastal cruising and want to get into places with skinny water (our currrent boat draws 8.5 feet. Ovnis have come up as have other makes.

Maybe replying a bit late to this but I have a Koopmans 46’ Yacht, Dutch built in aluminium with hydraulic lifting keel. With the keel up you can sit her on the bottom not that I’ve needed to do that as with the keel up the draft is only 1.5 metres and with the keel down 2.5 metres, very useful in Denmark last year where many marinas were in less than 2 metres and in The Scillies the year before that where some passages are even less than that.

I saw a picture of a Koopmans - very pretty boat

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Rod.Halling - 7/15/2020

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Alex Blackwell - 4/26/2019

Has anyone got good, bad or ugly experience with shallow draft yachts?
We are looking at doing more coastal cruising and want to get into places with skinny water (our currrent boat draws 8.5 feet. Ovnis have come up as have other makes.

Hi Alex, I owned an Ovni 385 from new for seven years and concur with Phil. She was a really good boat, but for us the lack of pointing ability (especially in the Med where the wind always seems to be on the nose) became a bit of an issue. The upsides are legion - sitting on the beach in the Scilly Isles, when all the deep keelers are wobbling about at anchor in the "roads", flying downwind with the plate up, easy fitment of "green energy" on the aft wing... We certainly did "go aground" a fair bit - mostly when we meant to, but sometimes just taking a chance, but never worried about landing on a rock as the bottom is SOLID aluminium - 10mm thick. If you are interested, talk to Stephen & Francine Johnson of North Sea Maritime - www.northseamaritime.co.uk - they are the importers and experts for UK and Ireland. They usually have a range of used boats and are completely trustworthy - lovely people.

We have gone the opposite way to you - if you remember, we were interested in Aleria before you put her on the market. We need something larger and went for an Oyster 55 (1995) just before you put Aleria on sale. Very happy with a boat that can tack through 90 degrees in 50 knots... Loads of room for the nippers too!   

If you don't fancy an Ovni, the Southerly boats seem to point somewhat better, but lack the incredible strength of an all aluminium design. "Distant Shores" on Youtube seem to have loved all their Southerlys. Best of luck with the search! If you're ever in Devon/Cornwall, drop me a line - it would be lovely to meet up.

All the best,

Rod

Thank you very much, Rod
yes I certainly remember you, but i did not know you had owned an Ovni.
as a very close friend chided me, when I lamented the Ovni not pointing well: "Gentlemen don't sail upwind". ;)

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Alex Blackwell - 4/26/2019

Has anyone got good, bad or ugly experience with shallow draft yachts?
We are looking at doing more coastal cruising and want to get into places with skinny water (our currrent boat draws 8.5 feet. Ovnis have come up as have other makes.

Hi Alex, I owned an Ovni 385 from new for seven years and concur with Phil. She was a really good boat, but for us the lack of pointing ability (especially in the Med where the wind always seems to be on the nose) became a bit of an issue. The upsides are legion - sitting on the beach in the Scilly Isles, when all the deep keelers are wobbling about at anchor in the "roads", flying downwind with the plate up, easy fitment of "green energy" on the aft wing... We certainly did "go aground" a fair bit - mostly when we meant to, but sometimes just taking a chance, but never worried about landing on a rock as the bottom is SOLID aluminium - 10mm thick. If you are interested, talk to Stephen & Francine Johnson of North Sea Maritime - www.northseamaritime.co.uk - they are the importers and experts for UK and Ireland. They usually have a range of used boats and are completely trustworthy - lovely people.

We have gone the opposite way to you - if you remember, we were interested in Aleria before you put her on the market. We need something larger and went for an Oyster 55 (1995) just before you put Aleria on sale. Very happy with a boat that can tack through 90 degrees in 50 knots... Loads of room for the nippers too!   

If you don't fancy an Ovni, the Southerly boats seem to point somewhat better, but lack the incredible strength of an all aluminium design. "Distant Shores" on Youtube seem to have loved all their Southerlys. Best of luck with the search! If you're ever in Devon/Cornwall, drop me a line - it would be lovely to meet up.

All the best,

Rod

Thank you very much, Richard
your boat sounds interesting, though a good bit bigger than what we would eventually like to have.

No experience with Ovnis, but I've circumnavigated the Americas in a 15m/50' Damien II steel lifting-keel (all the boat's ballast is in the centerboard/lifting keel) boat.

I really like being able to get into shallow places (draft with the board up is 1.3m(<5'), sailing draft is 3.2m/10.5'). This has helped in getting into many marinas, and has been most useful when in poorly charted areas, as going slowly and relying on the centerboard to lift if it hits a rock helps avoid going hard aground.

I like the ease of drying out upright and being fairly close to the ground.

As I see it, the main downside of a centerboard or lifting keel is the additional complexity. There's nothing to go wrong with a (welded-on) keel, and painting a keel is straightforward--either hauled out on jackstands/cradle, or drying the boat out against a wall or on it's side on a beach.

As well as a locking pin, my lifting keel has 4 screw pads that hold it in place, horizontally, when it is down, to keep it from slopping around in the centerboard case underway. I don't know what other centerboard boats do to hold the board in position when down, but that is a complication in the process of raising and lowering the board--something a keelboat never needs to consider.

I've painted the centerboard in a marina that had a pit for deep keels & centerboards, which was very handy, but I've not seen many of these pits. I've painted the centerboard by having a crane lift it out (it weighs about 5 tons, and the centerboard trunk goes to the deck, so after some unbolting of brackets, it can be lifted out). I've painted most of the centerboard with a roller on a stick while the board was simply raised, but I can't reach all of it that way. I've not yet careened (leaned the boat over) on a beach to paint the centerboard.

I really like having a centerboard/lifting keel, but no matter how one does the maintenance, it will be somewhat more complicated with a centerboard. I think whether that's worth it or not depends where one sails (most popular places are well-charted, so no need to "go slow and let the centerboard hit any rocks" as is useful in poorly-charted areas) and how much one enjoys going into shallow places.

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Alex Blackwell - 4/26/2019

Has anyone got good, bad or ugly experience with shallow draft yachts?
We are looking at doing more coastal cruising and want to get into places with skinny water (our currrent boat draws 8.5 feet. Ovnis have come up as have other makes.

Maybe replying a bit late to this but I have a Koopmans 46’ Yacht, Dutch built in aluminium with hydraulic lifting keel. With the keel up you can sit her on the bottom not that I’ve needed to do that as with the keel up the draft is only 1.5 metres and with the keel down 2.5 metres, very useful in Denmark last year where many marinas were in less than 2 metres and in The Scillies the year before that where some passages are even less than that.

In the last forty years, I've owned four cruisers - and the one thing that they've had in common is a draught of about one metre. I've come to believe that this the optimum fixed draught, if there is such a thing. Enough grip of the water not to get unduly blown around when trying to berth in a marina, for example, but not so much grip of the water as not to ride the punches when those big breaking seas are coming at you. In the smaller boats, that was all that was needed, as they were twin-keelers. Getting nearer to the size under discussion, Tystie is a 35ft bilgeboarder, co-designed by myself and David Thomas, with a 'V' shaped midship section. I'd like to put in a word for the bilgeboarder (two boards, either hinged like centreboards or up-and-down like daggerboards). They are made asymmetric and slightly toed-in, so actively lift to windward when the lee one is down and the windward one is raised. And they are not prone to getting jammed with stones when you take the ground. On Tystie, the deepest fixed part is the skeg, and this means that in wild going downwind, she feels a lot safer and more manageable than deeper boats that tend to trip over the keel and broach. I sailed her 85,000 miles in all the oceans except the Indian, and and also gunkholed in places barred to deeper draught boats. She is Cat A rated, so getting that rating in a 40ft boat wouldn't be a problem. I think that David Thomas designed a bigger one, after Tystie, but otherwise, a new design would have to be commissioned, I suspect.

Anyway, now I've downsized to a 23ft twin keeler, a Hunter Duette. I'm currently cruising in the Isles of Scilly, where I enjoy the ability to scoot over the shallow sandy flats between the islands at minimal rise of tide, demonstrating the advantage of shoal draught very well. The deeper boats have to wait for HW, or go the long way round.