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Noel.Dilly
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Drogue retrieval.
I have spent some time experimenting with drogue retrieval. The first essential I discovered was to stop the boat as much as possible, either by heaving to, or motoring into the wind at tick over. Basically this meant that the cones were not active and did not create much of a load.
Next discovery, I needed to wear a harness and tether, both hands were in use pulling on the line, and some of the snatching was unbalancing. I needed to stand up because most of the power involved leg muscles. Safety wise I did not like the method at all.
Next try was to retreat to the cockpit . the winches were a waste of time the gain was so slow. I fixed that by using my handy billy (portable block and tackle) in the cockpit. I anchored the inboard end to a harness anchorage that is alongside the companion way entrance. The other end was attached to the drogue using a simple loop of line. No fancy knot, just loop the loop through itself around the drogue line. It never slipped. I just hauled the drogue line in using the block and tackle as far as the cockpit anchorage. and secured the loop to the anchor point . With a second loop the process is just repeated. The block and tackle were sufficient mechanical advantage that I did not need to use a which to use the tackle. When the cones appeared I was worried about damage to them so put a fender under the line. About twenty minutes work to retrieve my drogue.
Age was the stimulus for evolving the anchor winch method.
Noel Dilly
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Noel.Dilly
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Group: Forum Members
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+x+xI have very much enjoyed the expert contribution to the Drogue forum. I have only deployed my home made drogue on three occasions, twice in anger(near terror) and once in a series of experiments. If you can use a sewing machine you can make a drogue. If you can read Don Jordon”s articles you can work out the dimensions for your boat. If anyone needs any advice or a template for cutting out the drogues I will help. I would not use dyneema as the line . All arresting devices should have some elasticity to avoid impact loading. Hitting things breaks them. I prefer good old nylon anchor plait. The bridles need massive snap hooks, hanging on trying to put pins in shackles with only two hands available is not easy. The anchorages as has been stressed should be substantial. It in not wise to introduce chafe in the system by having them inboard. The transom or the flanks of the stern are far better sites. Storage. I use a drum (photo)  Deployment. Start early the preliminary steps are easy to reverse if you are lucky enough not to have to complete the deployment. Take your time fitting the bridles first. They should already be marked with equal distances from the junction with the main line. I have one bridle twice as long as the other. This extra length bridle is very useful when retrieving the drogue. What I do basically is take it to the bow, and put it via the stem head fitting on the anchor winch. Release the other bridle swing round facing the drogue start the engine, and using the winch slowly motor up the drogue retrieving it. Take care as the cones mass through the fitting. Actual deployment. I prefer the loop method- Bridle and cone free line in first then the first of the cones will enter the water facing backwards. At this point I remove the paddle and vane from the self steering. Let out the rest of the drogue until only the spliced in chain remains abroad . Then drop the chain over the side of the stern. I once added more chain with no obvious difference to the angle of dangle. My unit has 3 metres of 10mm chain. The drogue is now deployed and it is time to have a tot of malt whisky with Lord Neptune. Noel Dilly Hi Noel, It is great to have a field report: the best kind of information. I agree that some stretch is nice to mitigate shock loading. I mention synthetics (Dyneema is one) as my JSD with its nylon braid was incredibly heavy when soaked with water (40-foot boat) and conventional line was like a sponge where high modulus line sheds water and remains pretty much its original weight. My reading and research have led me to believe that HM line can be used successfully (perhaps the bridle can or should be nylon to mitigate some of the shock loading). These are still early days in many respects, and the jury is still out with some details of construction, even though, already, I believe the JSD has proven itself to be very effective in storm/survival conditions. Any skipper is wise to do a good deal of research on his/her own to in determining the details. In any case, in reading and research, the loads on a JSD will be enormous. Boats I know have done pretty massive chainplates on the stern of their boats. It takes some planning to do it right. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy Hi Dick, Interesting stuff. I was reminded vividly of one drogue experience when you wrote of waterlogged lines. I can recall looking anxiously over the stern at my drogue as Bits reached the crest of a large wave. The enduring memory is just before we slipped off the crest down the wave, “the line came tight and water sprayed out of it like a surrounding halo.” I agree very much that the JSD is probably the best storm safety device for small boats . The rival is the parachute drogue, but only when deployed properly. As the Pardies ,Voss and others have demonstrated it needs to be deployed as an adjunct to heaving to. Once deployed it is quite a pleasant sensation down below To deploy a parachute directly forwards from the bow of a monohull is a horrendous mistake.The catenary and elasticity in the line ensures that the boat gyrates around on the end of the line slamming and jerking in a quite disturbing way. This has to be so, there are no constant forces keeping the hull in position . Both the wind strength and wave direction vary. The elastic recoil in the rope does the rest, pulling the boat forwards, then the rope goes slack the wind pushes the boat back until the line jerks tight and the cycle is repeated. I was never sure exactly where the parachute was, it was guesswork for me to deploy it wavelength away. Noel
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Dick
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 965,
Visits: 1.3K
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+x+x+xI have very much enjoyed the expert contribution to the Drogue forum. I have only deployed my home made drogue on three occasions, twice in anger(near terror) and once in a series of experiments. If you can use a sewing machine you can make a drogue. If you can read Don Jordon”s articles you can work out the dimensions for your boat. If anyone needs any advice or a template for cutting out the drogues I will help. I would not use dyneema as the line . All arresting devices should have some elasticity to avoid impact loading. Hitting things breaks them. I prefer good old nylon anchor plait. The bridles need massive snap hooks, hanging on trying to put pins in shackles with only two hands available is not easy. The anchorages as has been stressed should be substantial. It in not wise to introduce chafe in the system by having them inboard. The transom or the flanks of the stern are far better sites. Storage. I use a drum (photo) Deployment. Start early the preliminary steps are easy to reverse if you are lucky enough not to have to complete the deployment. Take your time fitting the bridles first. They should already be marked with equal distances from the junction with the main line. I have one bridle twice as long as the other. This extra length bridle is very useful when retrieving the drogue. What I do basically is take it to the bow, and put it via the stem head fitting on the anchor winch. Release the other bridle swing round facing the drogue start the engine, and using the winch slowly motor up the drogue retrieving it. Take care as the cones mass through the fitting. Actual deployment. I prefer the loop method- Bridle and cone free line in first then the first of the cones will enter the water facing backwards. At this point I remove the paddle and vane from the self steering. Let out the rest of the drogue until only the spliced in chain remains abroad . Then drop the chain over the side of the stern. I once added more chain with no obvious difference to the angle of dangle. My unit has 3 metres of 10mm chain. The drogue is now deployed and it is time to have a tot of malt whisky with Lord Neptune. Noel Dilly Hi Noel, It is great to have a field report: the best kind of information. I agree that some stretch is nice to mitigate shock loading. I mention synthetics (Dyneema is one) as my JSD with its nylon braid was incredibly heavy when soaked with water (40-foot boat) and conventional line was like a sponge where high modulus line sheds water and remains pretty much its original weight. My reading and research have led me to believe that HM line can be used successfully (perhaps the bridle can or should be nylon to mitigate some of the shock loading). These are still early days in many respects, and the jury is still out with some details of construction, even though, already, I believe the JSD has proven itself to be very effective in storm/survival conditions. Any skipper is wise to do a good deal of research on his/her own to in determining the details. In any case, in reading and research, the loads on a JSD will be enormous. Boats I know have done pretty massive chainplates on the stern of their boats. It takes some planning to do it right. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy Hi Dick, Interesting stuff. I was reminded vividly of one drogue experience when you wrote of waterlogged lines. I can recall looking anxiously over the stern at my drogue as Bits reached the crest of a large wave. The enduring memory is just before we slipped off the crest down the wave, “the line came tight and water sprayed out of it like a surrounding halo.” I agree very much that the JSD is probably the best storm safety device for small boats . The rival is the parachute drogue, but only when deployed properly. As the Pardies ,Voss and others have demonstrated it needs to be deployed as an adjunct to heaving to. Once deployed it is quite a pleasant sensation down below To deploy a parachute directly forwards from the bow of a monohull is a horrendous mistake.The catenary and elasticity in the line ensures that the boat gyrates around on the end of the line slamming and jerking in a quite disturbing way. This has to be so, there are no constant forces keeping the hull in position . Both the wind strength and wave direction vary. The elastic recoil in the rope does the rest, pulling the boat forwards, then the rope goes slack the wind pushes the boat back until the line jerks tight and the cycle is repeated. I was never sure exactly where the parachute was, it was guesswork for me to deploy it wavelength away. Noel Hi Noel, Again, the voice of experience. It is appreciated as I have been fortunate enough not have deployed either my parachute anchor nor my JSD in anger. Agree completely that the JSD (off the stern) is the storm safety device of choice over a parachute anchor (off the bow). As I read and talk to others, getting the para anchor positioned properly can be finicky. It also seems clear to me that I would rather be working gear from the safety of the cockpit over the exposed area of the bow. My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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Matt.North
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Group: Forum Members
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Hi - does anyone have any experience using heavy duty U bolts with large backing plates on the transom, rather than attaching to chain plates bolted onto the side? It seems to me the strength would be better as the bolts are in line with the force rather than at 90 degrees?
Thanks
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Dick
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 965,
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+xHi - does anyone have any experience using heavy duty U bolts with large backing plates on the transom, rather than attaching to chain plates bolted onto the side? It seems to me the strength would be better as the bolts are in line with the force rather than at 90 degrees? Thanks Hi Matt, I hope some engineering types weigh in. My take is that most transoms and their scantlings were not designed for the massive forces generated by the JSD. Most boats I know have gone to a design along the side of a boat near the transom much like chainplates for the standing rigging. Even there, good engineering and evaluation of the distribution of forces should be appraised. Note, when determining the holding power of a chainplate style installation, the holding power of the chainplate is generated primarily by the friction between the plate and the surface it is attached to and then distributed to structural components nearby: which is why the torque on the mounting bolts is crucial. The shear strength of the bolts holding the chainplate is far less important and should not come into play if the friction generated is adequate. Contrast this with the point loading that even a fairly large backing plate would induce on a transom: which is not designed for that sort of load. In addition all forces will be borne by the two nut/threads of the “U” bolt (or the 4 nut/threads if 2 “U” bolts). I am sure that this can be looked up somewhere and would guess it does not come close the forces Jordan estimated (and that users have experienced) that the JSD generates. My seat-of-the-pants thoughts, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
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chrisjohncooling@gmail.com...
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Group: Forum Members
Posts: 1,
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+xI have very much enjoyed the expert contribution to the Drogue forum. I have only deployed my home made drogue on three occasions, twice in anger(near terror) and once in a series of experiments. If you can use a sewing machine you can make a drogue. If you can read Don Jordon”s articles you can work out the dimensions for your boat. If anyone needs any advice or a template for cutting out the drogues I will help. I would not use dyneema as the line . All arresting devices should have some elasticity to avoid impact loading. Hitting things breaks them. I prefer good old nylon anchor plait. The bridles need massive snap hooks, hanging on trying to put pins in shackles with only two hands available is not easy. The anchorages as has been stressed should be substantial. It in not wise to introduce chafe in the system by having them inboard. The transom or the flanks of the stern are far better sites. Storage. I use a drum (photo) Deployment. Start early the preliminary steps are easy to reverse if you are lucky enough not to have to complete the deployment. Take your time fitting the bridles first. They should already be marked with equal distances from the junction with the main line. I have one bridle twice as long as the other. This extra length bridle is very useful when retrieving the drogue. What I do basically is take it to the bow, and put it via the stem head fitting on the anchor winch. Release the other bridle swing round facing the drogue start the engine, and using the winch slowly motor up the drogue retrieving it. Take care as the cones mass through the fitting. Actual deployment. I prefer the loop method- Bridle and cone free line in first then the first of the cones will enter the water facing backwards. At this point I remove the paddle and vane from the self steering. Let out the rest of the drogue until only the spliced in chain remains abroad . Then drop the chain over the side of the stern. I once added more chain with no obvious difference to the angle of dangle. My unit has 3 metres of 10mm chain. The drogue is now deployed and it is time to have a tot of malt whisky with Lord Neptune. Noel Dilly I deploy JSD in reverse the same way as I did in years past using an Admiralty design large canvas cone. I call this non-power mode. Chain first is power mode and is a hazard. Any tangle in the flake could rip off stern fittings or worse, cause injury.
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Tim.Good
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Following the webinar on JSD's this evening I said I would post the links. Some of these are already in Steve's PDF but here they are anyway: US Coast Guard Report & JSD Specifications http://www.jordanseriesdrogue.com/pdf/droguecoastguardreport.pdf
Case Studies Online https://dragdevicedb.com
Sailrite DIY video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L23MdzCbx2Y
Tim Good’s website - page showing his chainplates and dimensions http://www.chasing-contours.com/jsd-chainplates/Excellent debate and discussion https://www.morganscloud.com/2019/04/15/susie-goodalls-series-drogue-failure/Making And Using A Series Drogue (Back issue May 1994 issue of Yachting Monthly by Noel Dilly)
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Simon Currin
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Group: Administrators
Posts: 1K,
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The link to tonight's JSD webinar should appear here when it has finished optimising
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Sonia Johal
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Group: Forum Members
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Thank you so very much ☺️🥂☺️
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Simon Currin
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Group: Administrators
Posts: 1K,
Visits: 86
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Here is Trevor Roberton’s blog about JSD’s describing his experience gained from 11 deployments in anger http://iron-bark.blogspot.com/2023/09/notes-on-use-of-jordan-drogue.htmlSimon
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