Andy, you’ve obviously given this a lot of thought - what are you coming up with (strategy/components) that most closely meet your goals/desires?

Bill Balme

There's a new Lithium battery that claims it cannot catch fire. SAFE-Li is the new 340hp lithium-cobalt battery from SEALENCE.One to watch.  



Vice Commodore, OCC 

Hi Daria,

At 550kg, 450v and 250KW the Sealence batteries are far too large to be used as a house bank on any reasonably sized cruising boat.   And they look pretty expensive.

LiFePO4 don't self ignite either.  See the recent definitive information below from the President of ABYC on this subject.

Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws

September 2022 Newsletter
ABYC President's Message
Common Sense
ABYC is built on a tradition of common sense and real world experiences. Early in my technical days, I was told ABYC designed the Standards so the backyard boatbuilder could achieve desired results. Testing and methodology were crafted in plain language for a “common sense” approach to a safe product.
We did not set aside best engineering practices for simplicity; the technical committee is packed with engineers and data-crunchers overseeing the process of drafting and updating the Standards. This balance has helped ABYC create useable, reliable, and relevant documents that help to achieve an unmatched level of safety in our industry. This is why, when the US Coast Guard asked us to look into potential problems with Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO 4) batteries on boats, we jumped at the chance.
The ABYC Technical Department, with input from the industry, recreated a number of scenarios based on accident narratives that claimed LiFePO 4 batteries to be the cause of a fire. In our on-site test lab, our team subjected batteries to conditions ranging from “normal” operations to extreme use and abuse. We purchased units built for the marine environment with robust battery management systems. We also included recycled batteries available from mass retailers, with an “optional” battery management system and no clear instructions from the battery or cell manufacturer. We tried to replicate sketchy behavior which is the fear of insurance companies and regulators alike.
Do you know what we found? We couldn’t start the fire (Sorry Billy Joel). We witnessed swollen cells, completely dead batteries, and multiple safety cutoffs (when not bypassed). We had a very hot summer here in MD. Even the high heat didn’t come close to a spontaneous combustion scenario.
We arranged calls with industry experts, and we asked them what we might be missing in our testing. What can we throw at these batteries to replicate the accidents we were hearing about? No one had anything to add, short of putting these batteries directly in a fire (which we did). We were able to add LiFePO 4 batteries to a local International Association of Arson Investigators (IAAI) boat burn--even there, no one detected any indication that the batteries themselves contributed to the fire. Many of us were fully expecting a report where we were able to replicate an unsafe situation and make some recommendations.
Our full report will be sent to the USCG in due course, and then ABYC will report on our findings. This being a mere President's letter please take it as what it is: My observations while watching our Technical Department do some great work. But, the research and testing may show us that we must take this discussion to the test labs for another round. Our common sense approach to testing has proven again to be the foundation for getting to the bottom of a scenario many of us (including myself) thought would reveal itself in short order. Stand by for formal reporting as we continue our work.
- John

HYBRID AGM & LiPO batteries
———————-


Hello Team OCC,

For anyone who is familiar with the new “Hymer” motorhome hybrid battery system, please would you share your recommendations 👋.

I’m planning on installing their hybrid AGM/Lithium phosphate batteries called “BOS batteries” using their “LE300 modules” attached to my boat’s existing 460Ah AGM batteries, that were installed earlier this year.

I already have my Victron Energy 3kw inverter, an mppt, 120amp Diesel engine alternator, 90amp DC-DC charger and a 655w solar panel installed.

Benefits according to Force Four include cost effectiveness, as the LE300 modules significantly increase the life span of the AGM batteries to over ten years.

Grateful for your advice and feedback.

Best wishes,


Sonia
SY Salacia

+x[quote]

 

Sonia Johal - 31 Oct 2022

hello Sonia,
I installed a LE 300 package with 4 units. It´s working fine and the installation is quite easy. I read that you have a big inverter. For that you must have a look for the maximum current the unit is able to deliver. In my case it only give the half current and the other part is comming from the LA bank. And my inverter is much smaler than yours (1200Wp). For 3000 W you need a big pack if you need the hole power. Best regards from greece, Stefan

Thanks Stefan,

That’s brilliant news, as these hybrid batteries are so much more cost effective than standard lithium phosphate batteries, as well as being safer than lithium ones.

I shall stick to my plan and thanks so much for your kind reassurance.

Best wishes and fair winds,


Sonia
SY Salacia

+x

 

Sonia Johal - 1 Nov 2022

Thanks Stefan,That’s brilliant news, as these hybrid batteries are so much more cost effective than standard lithium phosphate batteries, as well as being safer than lithium ones.I shall stick to my plan and thanks so much for your kind reassurance.Best wishes and fair winds,SoniaSY Salacia

Hi Sonia and Stefan,
I hate to be a damp blanket, but I am not sure I would concur that any Lithium battery installation could (or should) be to the point where a skipper would call it “quite easy”. I invite others with lithium installs to weigh in.
I have been following lithium installs for a good while now and they have made significant progress, but I do not believe they are yet ready for plug ‘n play use. I know some of the “drop-in” lithium sales people would have it so, but I believe they are more interested in making sales than in a wise installation that is safe and reliable.
Firstly, A lithium install often demands a complete design and/or re-design of your vessel’s electrical system. This certainly involves every charging system, alternator and regulator, battery charger, solar regulator, etc. Wiring and fusing often need to be upgraded to deal with the increased amperage that can occur. And integrating the BMS (battery management system) with the various parts of the system to ensure safety and reliability can be quite challenging. There also needs to be plans to ensure mission critical systems (nav lights, GPS, etc.) are powered in case the lithium drop out in a load dump.
I also think at this time and anticipating a first long passage, that a skipper should be so well versed in lithium chemistry, installation management etc. that he/she could have done the install on their own, even if they chose someone else to do it (this is to facilitate trouble shooting when/if it is needed). I would also suggest reading the recent ABYC suggestions for lithium installations: I am not sure whether RCD/CE in the EU have suggested requirements as yet.
Again, I hope others comment.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

+x

 

Dick - 1 Nov 2022

+x

 

Sonia Johal - 1 Nov 2022

Thanks Stefan,That’s brilliant news, as these hybrid batteries are so much more cost effective than standard lithium phosphate batteries, as well as being safer than lithium ones.I shall stick to my plan and thanks so much for your kind reassurance.Best wishes and fair winds,SoniaSY Salacia

Hi Sonia and Stefan,
I hate to be a damp blanket, but I am not sure I would concur that any Lithium battery installation could (or should) be to the point where a skipper would call it “quite easy”. I invite others with lithium installs to weigh in.
I have been following lithium installs for a good while now and they have made significant progress, but I do not believe they are yet ready for plug ‘n play use. I know some of the “drop-in” lithium sales people would have it so, but I believe they are more interested in making sales than in a wise installation that is safe and reliable.
Firstly, A lithium install often demands a complete design and/or re-design of your vessel’s electrical system. This certainly involves every charging system, alternator and regulator, battery charger, solar regulator, etc. Wiring and fusing often need to be upgraded to deal with the increased amperage that can occur. And integrating the BMS (battery management system) with the various parts of the system to ensure safety and reliability can be quite challenging. There also needs to be plans to ensure mission critical systems (nav lights, GPS, etc.) are powered in case the lithium drop out in a load dump.
I also think at this time and anticipating a first long passage, that a skipper should be so well versed in lithium chemistry, installation management etc. that he/she could have done the install on their own, even if they chose someone else to do it (this is to facilitate trouble shooting when/if it is needed). I would also suggest reading the recent ABYC suggestions for lithium installations: I am not sure whether RCD/CE in the EU have suggested requirements as yet.
Again, I hope others comment.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

Hi Sonia,

I agree with all Dick has said above, especially that the boat owner should be fully involved, if not do the work himself, on any marine lithium/LFP system.  Installing a LFP battery system is certainly not an easy project if you want a 'best practice' installation that you can use for long term overseas cruising.  There are certainly shortcuts that can be taken, including using an installer that will most likely want to do a preassembled/drop in system.   It is somewhat easier and more lucrative for him to do, since the battery box and BMS installation are already done.  But there is much more to a good installation than that!  And with a drop in system you lose some of the safety features and the ability to make repairs of a DIY system.  If you are not familiar with what they are look at some of the posts above or read the Marine How To and Nordkyn websites that describe the differences.

You should know that the LFP market is very competitive right now. Some dealers have made claims about their products that just are not true.  And there is a huge range of equipment options, some much better than others.  I seriously doubt that the Hymer batteries you mention are "safer and more cost effective" than a properly done quality DIY system. Every drop in system I have ever looked at is just the opposite.  Can you give us a link and some details as to why you think that?  What will this install cost you, and what spares and tools will you carry in case of a problem later on?   It is a worthwhile discussion for this forum.
 
I am not familiar with the Hymer hybrid battery system, however, I do know how a hybrid system is supposed to work.  We have been using a quality DIY LFP system we installed ourselves for over 2 years now.  It took us almost a year to do the research, order the equipment and do the install.  There are some significant problems with some preassembled/drop in systems.  Best you research this carefully rather than just believe a dealers' hype.  A good place to do that is on the FB Group 'Lithium Batteries on a Boat'. There are some really knowledgeable long term users and experts on that forum that can better advise you. There are also a couple of trusted very detailed internet website resources mentioned in my first para above that would be worth reading.

Finally, Flying Fish will be running an article with our thoughts on doing a LFP install this month. This is not an easy project to get a handle on, but because of the cost and complexity it is best to not take shortcuts and try to get it right the first time.  That takes time and study.

Dave McCampbell
SV Soggy Paws
In Indonesia

+x

 

Dick - 1 Nov 2022

+x

 

Sonia Johal - 1 Nov 2022

Thanks Stefan,That’s brilliant news, as these hybrid batteries are so much more cost effective than standard lithium phosphate batteries, as well as being safer than lithium ones.I shall stick to my plan and thanks so much for your kind reassurance.Best wishes and fair winds,SoniaSY Salacia

Hi Sonia and Stefan,
I hate to be a damp blanket, but I am not sure I would concur that any Lithium battery installation could (or should) be to the point where a skipper would call it “quite easy”. I invite others with lithium installs to weigh in.
I have been following lithium installs for a good while now and they have made significant progress, but I do not believe they are yet ready for plug ‘n play use. I know some of the “drop-in” lithium sales people would have it so, but I believe they are more interested in making sales than in a wise installation that is safe and reliable.
Firstly, A lithium install often demands a complete design and/or re-design of your vessel’s electrical system. This certainly involves every charging system, alternator and regulator, battery charger, solar regulator, etc. Wiring and fusing often need to be upgraded to deal with the increased amperage that can occur. And integrating the BMS (battery management system) with the various parts of the system to ensure safety and reliability can be quite challenging. There also needs to be plans to ensure mission critical systems (nav lights, GPS, etc.) are powered in case the lithium drop out in a load dump.
I also think at this time and anticipating a first long passage, that a skipper should be so well versed in lithium chemistry, installation management etc. that he/she could have done the install on their own, even if they chose someone else to do it (this is to facilitate trouble shooting when/if it is needed). I would also suggest reading the recent ABYC suggestions for lithium installations: I am not sure whether RCD/CE in the EU have suggested requirements as yet.
Again, I hope others comment.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

Thank you Dick, that you remember me why I hate forums. You always find somebody who write something negative without reading the question. Sonia ask something about the LE 300 from the company BOS. Not more. So, read and anderstand. Stefan

+x

 

Stefan.Ecke - 2 Nov 2022

+x

 

Dick - 1 Nov 2022

+x

 

Sonia Johal - 1 Nov 2022

Thanks Stefan,That’s brilliant news, as these hybrid batteries are so much more cost effective than standard lithium phosphate batteries, as well as being safer than lithium ones.I shall stick to my plan and thanks so much for your kind reassurance.Best wishes and fair winds,SoniaSY Salacia

Hi Sonia and Stefan,
I hate to be a damp blanket, but I am not sure I would concur that any Lithium battery installation could (or should) be to the point where a skipper would call it “quite easy”. I invite others with lithium installs to weigh in.
I have been following lithium installs for a good while now and they have made significant progress, but I do not believe they are yet ready for plug ‘n play use. I know some of the “drop-in” lithium sales people would have it so, but I believe they are more interested in making sales than in a wise installation that is safe and reliable.
Firstly, A lithium install often demands a complete design and/or re-design of your vessel’s electrical system. This certainly involves every charging system, alternator and regulator, battery charger, solar regulator, etc. Wiring and fusing often need to be upgraded to deal with the increased amperage that can occur. And integrating the BMS (battery management system) with the various parts of the system to ensure safety and reliability can be quite challenging. There also needs to be plans to ensure mission critical systems (nav lights, GPS, etc.) are powered in case the lithium drop out in a load dump.
I also think at this time and anticipating a first long passage, that a skipper should be so well versed in lithium chemistry, installation management etc. that he/she could have done the install on their own, even if they chose someone else to do it (this is to facilitate trouble shooting when/if it is needed). I would also suggest reading the recent ABYC suggestions for lithium installations: I am not sure whether RCD/CE in the EU have suggested requirements as yet.
Again, I hope others comment.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

Thank you Dick, that you remember me why I hate forums. You always find somebody who write something negative without reading the question. Sonia ask something about the LE 300 from the company BOS. Not more. So, read and anderstand. Stefan

Hi Stefan,
I am sorry I offended you. That was not my intention, although I knew, as I said in the first sentence, that what I was writing might not be received comfortably.
If I missed something and went down a wrong pathway, then I would hope that you could gently re-direct me rather than using me as an example of what is wrong on forums. I would also hope that you, as a fellow member of OCC, would extend to me the presumption that I was writing in good faith and I would also hope that my writings in the Forum reflect that my interests are searching for best and safe practices for a widely wandering sailboat.
I stand by what I see as the present state of lithium battery installations for a boat that is widely wandering and where safety and reliability are paramount. I wrote what I wrote as one cruiser’s thoughts on a mission critical system. I did not condemn lithium; I know friends who have done installs that are safe and reliable, but none of them would have described the install as “quite easy”, although I recognize that you experienced it as such.
I was writing for someone who is not a seasoned sailor doing their first offshore passage. A vessel mid ocean should have, to my mind, the mission critical elements of their boat be gear be bullet-proof: that there is a history of field reports over time substantiating safety and reliability. Lithium is changing rapidly, but I do think that those wandering widely with lithium are still what I call early adapters. I have friends, very experienced skippers all, who have done this successfully and they have worked hard and long to make it work.
I suspect most boats will be lithium powered in the not-too-distant future and, as is still occurring, changing and evolving, safety and reliability will be established.
\My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy