Hi Charles,
Ketches are always a challenge for self steering gear, but your boat is common enough so that others may have tried it. I would try Hans at Scanmar in the US as they are the vendor for Monitor windvanes and may have worked with your design boat.
Good luck and let us know what you find out, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

I can second Dick's suggestion. We have a Monitor on our Bowman 57 ketch and have been impressed with its performance and Scanmar's service - the best we've ever experienced. See Alex's post below.

Vice Commodore, OCC 

Just to add a bit of balance to the Hydrovane camp, I fitted one to my Bavaria Vision 46 a couple of months ago.
I've only done one trip with it - Gibraltar to Madeira (600 nm) but it has performed impeccably. 
This is a 2021 model so maybe improved on the 2008 version.
The pole should never slip if the clamps are tightened up correctly.
if the fittings start to pull out of the stern then the stern needed reinforcing and backing plates
I glassed at least 6 layers on the inside before using the factory supplied aluminium backing plates.

Still its early days the trip to Tenerife should test it some more

+x

 

Thomas.Rolph - 17 Jun 2022

Just to add a bit of balance to the Hydrovane camp, I fitted one to my Bavaria Vision 46 a couple of months ago.
I've only done one trip with it - Gibraltar to Madeira (600 nm) but it has performed impeccably. 
This is a 2021 model so maybe improved on the 2008 version.
The pole should never slip if the clamps are tightened up correctly.
if the fittings start to pull out of the stern then the stern needed reinforcing and backing plates
I glassed at least 6 layers on the inside before using the factory supplied aluminium backing plates.

Still its early days the trip to Tenerife should test it some more

Hi all,
I think a case can be made for passage making using a below decks autopilot, particularly as the size of the boat increases: this is especially the case where there are ample resources for replacing the amps used by the autopilot. This is often not a problem on an increasing number of sailboats: either by hydro, wind, or solar. And many boats have generators (the argument for a generator is if the boat has either a big freezer or wants aircon at anchor) which can be run on passage when the batteries need topping off.
Add to the above, that below deck autopilots have become (and are becoming) more efficient in their use of power, are more robust and reliable, and are very easy to use and adjust and I think the argument for passage making under electric autopilot takes shape.
We have, and have used, a Monitor, but in recent years and during our last Atlantic crossing, we used our electric autopilot exclusively: it was just far less fussy and more predictable in adjusting under the pressure or a squall or event of some sort.. We do have a big freezer, so genset use daily is a given: I suspect that the autopilot just adds a few minutes extra run time.
There is the above, and the fact that, like most cruising boats, we cruise and that means coastal cruising, where the electric autopilot shines and wind vanes, who like the steady breezes of open ocean, do not shine. For example, we have ~~70k miles on Alchemy, and ~~70 countries visited, but only 2 Atlantic crossings (and those were broken up with stops along the way). So the vast majority of our cruising miles were not where a wind vane would have been used (and yes, I know some few skippers use wind vanes for shorter hops, but most of us are intolerant of the work and attention that entails). And in all those miles, our autopilot has never let us down (tempting the fates now, I am)
So, sad to say, our Monitor remains with us as a back-up for a lightening strike or another sort of electrical catastrophe.
Not sure what I would do now, but I would certainly consider having no wind vane: perhaps buy a second autopilot with the money saved.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

Hi,
I have just been through the deliberations for my Gunfleet 43. We already had an autopilot which can be controlled from the helm or from below. However, given that we wished to be equipped for solo sailing, a backup solution was mandatory. One solution (implemented by Ryan from Youtube channel Ryan and Sophie Sailing) was to set up a second, completely independent autopilot. The alternative was self steering. My boat was in Northern Spain this summer and there is a yard at Xufre which has become a specialist by default. They have installed Hydrovanes on four yachts over the winter of 2021/22.
My previous view had been that self steering was for small boats (say below 35ft). However this has changed in the last 15 years. Around 2007/8 Hydrovane introduced a much bigger rudder. However they did not modify the main shaft and, in some cases, the mechanics of the extra load caused flexing in the shaft such that the system did not work well. This was fixed by upgrading the shaft to duplex stainless.
Last winter in the Caribbean I met three ownersusing Hydrovane on boats bigger than mine.
Based on these recommendations I had a Hydrovane fitted in August. No complaints so far, although I will be able to give a better critique in one month after using it for an Atlantic crossing
Hope this helps,
Tom Collins
S/Y Skyfall

+x

 

Thomas.Collins - 12 Nov 2022

Hi,
I have just been through the deliberations for my Gunfleet 43. We already had an autopilot which can be controlled from the helm or from below. However, given that we wished to be equipped for solo sailing, a backup solution was mandatory. One solution (implemented by Ryan from Youtube channel Ryan and Sophie Sailing) was to set up a second, completely independent autopilot. The alternative was self steering. My boat was in Northern Spain this summer and there is a yard at Xufre which has become a specialist by default. They have installed Hydrovanes on four yachts over the winter of 2021/22.
My previous view had been that self steering was for small boats (say below 35ft). However this has changed in the last 15 years. Around 2007/8 Hydrovane introduced a much bigger rudder. However they did not modify the main shaft and, in some cases, the mechanics of the extra load caused flexing in the shaft such that the system did not work well. This was fixed by upgrading the shaft to duplex stainless.
Last winter in the Caribbean I met three ownersusing Hydrovane on boats bigger than mine.
Based on these recommendations I had a Hydrovane fitted in August. No complaints so far, although I will be able to give a better critique in one month after using it for an Atlantic crossing
Hope this helps,
Tom Collins
S/Y Skyfall

Hi Tom, Nice report. I look forward to your field report, especially if they include some light air as well as heavier air sailing and how "fussy" you experience the use of the autopilot. Also, is a Hydrovane adaptable so it can be used as an aux rudder if there is a boat failure in that area?
Thanks, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

+x

 

Dick - 12 Nov 2022

+x

 

Thomas.Collins - 12 Nov 2022

Hi,
I have just been through the deliberations for my Gunfleet 43. We already had an autopilot which can be controlled from the helm or from below. However, given that we wished to be equipped for solo sailing, a backup solution was mandatory. One solution (implemented by Ryan from Youtube channel Ryan and Sophie Sailing) was to set up a second, completely independent autopilot. The alternative was self steering. My boat was in Northern Spain this summer and there is a yard at Xufre which has become a specialist by default. They have installed Hydrovanes on four yachts over the winter of 2021/22.
My previous view had been that self steering was for small boats (say below 35ft). However this has changed in the last 15 years. Around 2007/8 Hydrovane introduced a much bigger rudder. However they did not modify the main shaft and, in some cases, the mechanics of the extra load caused flexing in the shaft such that the system did not work well. This was fixed by upgrading the shaft to duplex stainless.
Last winter in the Caribbean I met three ownersusing Hydrovane on boats bigger than mine.
Based on these recommendations I had a Hydrovane fitted in August. No complaints so far, although I will be able to give a better critique in one month after using it for an Atlantic crossing
Hope this helps,
Tom Collins
S/Y Skyfall

Hi Tom, Nice report. I look forward to your field report, especially if they include some light air as well as heavier air sailing and how "fussy" you experience the use of the autopilot. Also, is a Hydrovane adaptable so it can be used as an aux rudder if there is a boat failure in that area?
Thanks, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

Yes, in principle it can function as an emergency rudder. However, it cannot 'fight' the main rudder. So the main rudder has to either be completely detached (orca bite?) or somehow locked centrally. I am not sure either scenario is realistic. And I hope I never find out!

The original post starting this thread asked about what OCC members use for self-steering on heavy boats.

My 50' Damien II schooner is about 25 tons fully loaded. The boat is used for living aboard and long-distance cruising much more than for coastal cruising.

No autopilot (the boat came with an old one, which I got tired of fixing and removed it about 30,000 miles ago). I hate motoring, and don't do a huge amount of coastal cruising, so it isn't very hard to do without an autopilot.

A home-made windvane built from plans in a french sailing magazine (--it came with the boat--I don't have the plans or know the name of the magazine), drives a trim tab on the back of an auxiliary rudder. The auxiliary rudder also has a detachable tiller.  The vast majority of the 110,000 miles that the boat has sailed have been steered by this windvane.

Sheet-to-tiller self-steering is used when the wind is too light for the windvane. The bearings in the homemade windvane have more friction than bearings in commercially-available windvanes, so it does not work as well in light winds as commercially-available windvanes.

I use sheet-to-tiller self-steering in winds too light for the windvane. If you're not familiar with sheet-to-tiller self-steering, I suggest looking at some youtube videos about it (there are several, including one of mine). Rope, blocks and bungy cords are all the equipment required--it is absolutely the lowest-cost method of self-steering.

Sheet-to-tiller is the hardest way of self-steering--it takes quite a bit of time to learn, and then every time the sails are reefed or the course is changed, it takes me 2-10 minutes to get it adjusted correctly. Sheet-to-tiller is more demanding of getting the sails balanced than the windvane is (and windvanes require getting the sails balanced more than autopilots do).  

So that is what I use for self-steering my heavy boat.  Keep in mind the usage profile--if I was doing a lot of coastal cruising, and had frequent time pressures that made me motor often, I'd want an autopilot as well. 

+x

 

Richard Hudson - 13 Nov 2022

The original post starting this thread asked about what OCC members use for self-steering on heavy boats.

My 50' Damien II schooner is about 25 tons fully loaded. The boat is used for living aboard and long-distance cruising much more than for coastal cruising.

No autopilot (the boat came with an old one, which I got tired of fixing and removed it about 30,000 miles ago). I hate motoring, and don't do a huge amount of coastal cruising, so it isn't very hard to do without an autopilot.

A home-made windvane built from plans in a french sailing magazine (--it came with the boat--I don't have the plans or know the name of the magazine), drives a trim tab on the back of an auxiliary rudder. The auxiliary rudder also has a detachable tiller.  The vast majority of the 110,000 miles that the boat has sailed have been steered by this windvane.

Sheet-to-tiller self-steering is used when the wind is too light for the windvane. The bearings in the homemade windvane have more friction than bearings in commercially-available windvanes, so it does not work as well in light winds as commercially-available windvanes.

I use sheet-to-tiller self-steering in winds too light for the windvane. If you're not familiar with sheet-to-tiller self-steering, I suggest looking at some youtube videos about it (there are several, including one of mine). Rope, blocks and bungy cords are all the equipment required--it is absolutely the lowest-cost method of self-steering.

Sheet-to-tiller is the hardest way of self-steering--it takes quite a bit of time to learn, and then every time the sails are reefed or the course is changed, it takes me 2-10 minutes to get it adjusted correctly. Sheet-to-tiller is more demanding of getting the sails balanced than the windvane is (and windvanes require getting the sails balanced more than autopilots do).  

So that is what I use for self-steering my heavy boat.  Keep in mind the usage profile--if I was doing a lot of coastal cruising, and had frequent time pressures that made me motor often, I'd want an autopilot as well. 

Hi Richard,
A really lovely report bringing a wealth of experience to bear on the question. I particularly enjoyed your bringing some “historical” practices into present day life. It is good to be reminded of skills long forgotten, or never imagined, in this world of technology and automation: in part, because those skills still can have a place in a boat where something unfortunate has occurred and, also, because it is always good to know the antecedents of the equipment being used today. Casual observation of trim tabs leads me to think they are smart and seaworthy and, unfortunately, out of fashion, much like tillers are.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy