Schengen for Non-EU residents


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Hasbun
Hasbun
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Well, hello Dick!

I'd love to hear your comments on your stays in the UK, as we are going to be wintering at St Katharine's as well. We stay aboard year-round and usually don't go home (people come and visit us).

So, what are your thoughts on the British issuances of leave of stay? David Frost is of the opinion the Brits follow a strict 180 days max stay in 360 day period rule.

I, on the contrary, believe they don't want us to establish residence and certainly will be extremely strict and severely punish leave of stay overstayers, and certainly scrutinize entries and eventually deny admittance to people who come in repeatedly for lengthy periods, as they rightly should, but I don't think they are counting 180 days across separate entries.

What do you think, based on your experience?

OH
edited by Hasbun on 11/2/2017
Dick
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Hi OH,
As said earlier, we were in and out of the UK over 5+ years and deeply appreciated the ability to be out of Schengen and to stay for 6 months. We were quite respectful of the UK’s rules and never explored any status that would allow us to stay longer than 6 months as we always flew home mid-winter for a couple of weeks and, even when sailing UK waters, managed to get across the channel for a while every summer.
We know of one Aussie who, when he returned to the UK, had it discovered that he had been in the UK more than 6 months when he had departed a few weeks earlier and he was denied entry and returned home for 3 months. We were never inconvenienced but were told sternly at one airport return that we had primarily been in European and UK territories for a long time and we should consider a new visa. We did nothing and continued in and out without further comment for 2-3 more years.
My experience is that UK officials take their rules seriously. That said, I believe port officials operating out of the Hotline understand our particular travel plans/history better and that airport/large ferry immigration officials are the most rigorous and least likely to cut any slack (makes sense, how many cruisers can they encounter and our passport history has got to be unusual and unusual = suspicious). That said, at any time one can draw an official who has gotten up on the wrong side of the bed.
I have no info on Leaves of Stay and have not heard of same. I have personal contacts that can facilitate your stay at SKD a great deal and will likely have more informed answers than I which I will send you if you contact me off-line.
I hope this helps, My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy
Hasbun
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Hello, Dick,

Yes, we are agreed anyone overstaying beyond the standard 6 month "leave of stay" (which is what the Brits call the everyday permission to enter), like the unfortunate Aussie, should expect no flexibility at all.

The rules are crystal clear: one cannot overstay even one day beyond the day for which leave has been granted. The penalties are severe.

The question is different. Are they counting days across separate trips and calculating a 180 day maximum?

For example, you arrive 1 January and stay until 30 April (4 months).
You leave.
You arrive back 1 October. You attempt to leave 25 December (2 months, 3 weeks).
You have now stayed 6 months + 3 weeks in one 360 day period.
This is calculated at your point of departure, with the following consequence:

===> You are deported on 25 December and banned from visiting the UK for 10 years <===

This is the proposed scenario. Does not look right.

Cheerio,
edited by Hasbun on 11/2/2017
Dick
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Hi OH,
Whenever we entered UK and got stamped, the stamp said “Leave to enter for 6 months, employment and recourse to public funds prohibited”. We never questioned that we could then stay in the UK for the next 6 months. We left and returned often and considered the clock started whenever we returned and received this stamp. We did not do what might be called “visa” runs: taking the train to Paris for the weekend for ex., and getting a new stamp upon return. We did not need to. The only time official eyebrows were raised was, as reported in the earlier post, an official commented that we had been in Europe a long time, but she was referring to Europe (including the UK) and not just to our time in the UK.
I would not want you to feel I have answered your question definitively, as I am no immigration lawyer, and I am clear that if an official wants to find transgressions, they will never have a difficult time of it. I answer from the shoes of one who has done a lot of traveling, tries to follow all the rules, but who also tries to keep a low profile and not gather any attention.
I hope I have answered your question. Come back if I have missed something.
My best, Dick
David.Frost
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Hello Dick and thanks for the info.
Hasbun. We fully concur with Dick on the matter of 6 months entry in the UK as an Australian non visa holder . 6 Months entry was granted to us in Shetland by a visiting immigration official. (We emailed before we left Norway.)
We were also treated with every courtesy by Customs and Immigration when we were boarded in Dover Strait, and when we discovered we had not completed entry requirements properly on our entry into Ireland from Azores. We received inaccurate advice but kept a record of times and places at which we received that advice. They "fixed" the problem, supplied the proper paperwork and completed it all at their office forwarding copies by email as our printer was not working at the time. Above and beyond the call of duty!!
All in all the Uk is very straightforward and easy. With 6 months in 12 being the accepted rule.
The Schengen countries are the real issue with 90 days during any 180 day period being the rule.
There seem to be a lot of misunderstandings, both by travellers and officials, and rule breakers as a consequence of the apparent fluidity of the application of the rules.
Then I read with interest the problem Destiny has just encountered in Greenland. Its not even Schengen and they seem to be applying the 90 days in any 180 days in Scandic Countries (this includes Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Faroe and Iceland) rule there too.
We are, as Australians, able to take advantage of a separate agreement between Australia and the Netherlands which permits us to stay in the Netherlands for 90 days after our Schengen period of 90 days expires, so long as we have not entered Netherlands during that period. (This would start their clock)
It is all very confusing and requires a lot of close clock watching to remain strictly legal.
Good luck
Kris n David




[quote=Hasbun]Hello David,

Assuming everything looks alright, a non-visa-required foreigner is usually granted leave to stay of 6 months in the UK on initial arrival.

However, when we arrived in the Isles of Scilly in 2015 and called the National Yachtline to report our arrival, we were granted admission in the UK and yet our passports were not stamped. So, if one does not have evidence of how long one's leave of stay is, how can one substantiate the legality of one's stay? We only stayed in the UK for a few days before sailing for Brest.

Did you get stamps on your passport when you arrived in Shetland? How long is your leave of stay?

Cheers,

OH
At anchor, Marmaris[/quote]
Hasbun
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Hello David,

I am not convinced a 6 months in 12 accepted rule exists in the UK. I do believe frequent visitors who stay lengthy periods (within their approved leave to stay) will be subject to increased scrutiny upon further entry applications, and probably at some point subjected to issuance of abbreviated leaves to stay or flat out denied further entry. Certainly anyone engaging in so-called "visa runs" will be detected and probably banished for 1 to 10 years from further admittance into the UK.

But I don't think anyone will be penalized for staying the number of days that their stamp reads.

On another subject, the Greenland situation may arise as a result of the Nordic Passport Union (NPU) agreements. Another possible byproduct of the NPU is the following:
[ul][li]Citizens of certain countries are entitled to stay in Denmark for 90 days, [color=rgb(48, 73, 95)][font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]regardless of stays in other Schengen countries[/font][/color]

[color=rgb(48, 73, 95)][font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Citizens of Australia, Canada, Chile, Israel, Japan, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore, South Korea and the US can freely enter and stay in Denmark for up to 90 days in any 180-day period, regardless of whether they have stayed in another Schengen country prior to entry into Denmark. The 90 days are counted from the entry date into Denmark or another Nordic country. If you have previously spent time in Denmark or another Nordic country within the previous 180 days, that time will be deducted from the 90-day maximum.[/font][/color][/li][/ul]
[ul][li]Source: Danish Immigration Service - [/li][li]https://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/coming_to_dk/visa/Visa_free_travel.htm[/li][/ul]

So you see, the Danish (like the Dutch) allow you an extra 90 days beyond Schengen, but for the purposes of determining "how long you have been in Denmark", they consider the territory of Denmark to include all Nordic countries, and quite probably the Faroes and Greenland as well.

Cheers,
Maxwell Fletcher
Maxwell Fletcher
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Hi Hasbun, thank you for pointing out the Danish 90-day allowance regardless of stays in other (non-Nordic) Schengen Countries. You mentioned that this applies to the Netherlands as well (“So you see, the Danish (like the Dutch) allow you an extra 90 days beyond Schengen...”)

I tried to find confirmation of this on the Netherland’s IND website, but have so far not been able to find anything that references this exception/extension to the 90 days. I frequently get asked about these issues, so would like to keep myself up to date. If possible could you share a link where I might find this?

I am living in the Netherlands with temporary residence under the “Dutch American Friendship Treaty” and occasionally get asked about these issues, so would like to keep up to date.

Many thanks and Happy New Year.
Max
edited by juanona on 1/1/2018
Hasbun
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Hello Max,

I know nothing of the Dutch allowance for Australians. While it may work for Aussies, I am pretty certain it does not apply to U.S. passport holders at all.

I was merely commenting on David Frost's post, who wrote, among other things: «[font=sans-serif]We are, as Australians, able to take advantage of a separate agreement between Australia and the Netherlands which permits us to stay in the Netherlands for 90 days after our Schengen period of 90 days expires, so long as we have not entered Netherlands during that period.[/font]»

David further wrote on an earlier post: «[font=sans-serif]I have confirmation from the Dutch Consulate that Australians are allowed 3 months in Netherlands upon entry not withstanding time spend in other Schengen areas. You may not arrive in Netherlands at any time previous to this or the 3 months will start ticking and does not stop.. So when we are done in Belgium we go to Netherlands but may not enter any other Schengen areas in this time because technically our Schengen visa is expired.[/font]»

By the way, the Danish 90-day extension is mirrored by Norwegian regulation, which makes perfect sense, when you think about the text of the Danish regulation I quoted. I can supply the source for the Norwegian law, if anyone is interested.

Best,
Maxwell Fletcher
Maxwell Fletcher
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Thank you for the clarification, Hasbun. If you could provide a link to the Norway law with the extension, I would appreciate it. I tried to find it but the page I found seems not to have the same exception as Denmark does. Thank you very much. Max
Link to what I found:

https://www.udi.no/en/want-to-apply/visit-and-holiday/to-visit-norway-without-a-visa/
Hasbun
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The laws are here in Norwegian:

1. The regulation itself. Section 1 discusses why Norway must make certain exceptions to the 90 in 180 days hard limit. Section 2.1 clarifies that these certain exceptions means applicable people can stay more than the 90 day Schengen limit. The final paragraph notes that stays in any Nordic country counts towards the extra 90 days (i.e., mirrors the Danish regs)
https://www.udiregelverk.no/en/documents/udi-circulars/rs-2010-080/#attachment

2. The last line in the regulation calls out to the list of applicable countries. Here is the list, which includes a bunch of American countries, all the way from Canada to Argentina, plus a number of Asian countries such as South Korea and Israel, plus Australia and NZ:
https://www.udiregelverk.no/en/documents/udi-circulars/rs-2010-080/rs-2010-080v/

The way this actually works is as follows: write an e-mail to UDI in English (their address is on their website). Cite the webpages above and your nationality. They will respond quite rapidly that yes, you can stay 90 extra days in Norway, but that if you go from Norway to any other Schengen country, you are in for a world of hurt, i.e., after your extra days, you need to take a direct flight or boat Oslo-US, Oslo-Bahrain, or Oslo-London.

You should also keep that e-mail with you because most Norwegian police logically don't know the rules and their first instinct will be to apprehend you if they catch you after the 90 day Schengen limit.

Most recent known e-mail received from UDI as described: 11/Sep/2017

Regards,
edited by Hasbun on 1/3/2018
GO

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