Addendum discussion from Facebook 12-06-2020:


SV Kestrel
14 hrs
We are US citizens who live aboard our sailboat full time and are currently in Grenada. Our pre-COVID plan had been to go through the Panama Canal and head west into the Pacific. However, with the current uncertainty, we are now strongly considering spending the winter in the Caribbean and then heading east instead to Europe and the UK in May once COVID restrictions have lifted (assuming they have).

As US citizens, our travel in Europe is complicated by Schengen limitations and creates a real dilemma. We are not interested in crossing the Atlantic twice in one year year. Instead, we'd like to head from the Caribbean in the spring, travel throughout northern Europe in the summer and fall, and overwinter in the UK. We'd then like to travel south from UK the next spring and return to the Caribbean by way of the Canaries in the standard November time frame. Essentially this works out to a year-and-a-half journey. We don't have a great interest in the Med, although once we leave the UK after overwintering we can spend time in the Med as necessary.

Has any US citizen done something similar? If so, how did you do it? Did you get an extension to your stay; did you get a long stay visa from an EU country? We can only stay in the UK for 6 months out of every 12 months, so spending more than a winter there isn't really a possibility. Sailing for 90 days and then flying out of the EU for 90 days, leaving the boat behind, isn't an option for us.

Thank you, brain trust. We'd really like to make this work if we can.

10You, Frances Rennie, Gus Wilson and 7 others
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Daria Blackwell
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Barbara Arden Lockwood Johnston
Barbara Arden Lockwood Johnston We discovered, after the fact, that most, if not all of the Scandinavian countries will give you an additional 90 days after your initial Schengen allotment runs out. I think it's limited to only one country, but check the immigration websites of thos…See More
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Odette Hasbun
Odette Hasbun The Scandi extension gives you an extra 90 days beyond Schengen... but not an extra 90 beyond Scandinavia itself. So if you spend 90 days in Sweden and then go to Denmark, Denmark will issue you zero additional days. However if you spend 90 days in Germany and then go to Denmark, Denmark will give you an extra 90 days.
At the end of the extra Scandinavian 90, you cannot go back to Schengen, because country extensions (exceptions to Schengen) are _not_ recognized by other Schengen countries. So if you went back to Germany, the Germans would simply see you as having just overstayed by 90 days.
Sailingwise, therefore, after the extra Scandi 90, your only options are UK, Ireland, or Russia, where Russia is unlikely to work as a Schengen wait-out period. Flightwise, you can take any plane to a third country, so long as it does not stop anywhere in Schengen.
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Geir Ove Bø
Geir Ove Bø europa is opening up now, in June. changeing nearly every day now.
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Pam MellonActive Now
Pam Mellon You can go to non Schengen places like Ireland.
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Daria Blackwell
Daria Blackwell Check out the Schengen thread on the OCC Forum.
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SV Kestrel
SV Kestrel Thanks, Daria, just read the thread.
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Daria Blackwell
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Gus Wilson
Gus Wilson Check your messages. I just sent one about this.
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Lars Hellman
Lars Hellman A detour to Norway (not EU) will also give you an additional 90 days when you sail back into EU. Besides, Norway is an absolutely gorgeous cruising ground if you can leave the Caribbean heat behind for a while. You will never forget it.
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Neil McCubbin
Neil McCubbin Lars Hellman Agreed, Norway is great cruising
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Odette Hasbun
Odette Hasbun Unfortunately it is not true that you can sail back to Schengen after a Norwegian extension.
The primary problem is that in-country extensions (i.e., Schengen national exceptions) are not recognized by other Schengen countries, so the next country will simply see you as having overstayed your Schengen welcome by 90 days.
The secondary problem is one of logistics. Say you stamped into Schengen in France, went into Norway, got an extension stamp from UDI, and wanted to leave Norway straight for the Netherlands. When you go to the police station at, say, Haugesund and ask to be stamped out of Schengen, they will ask, where are you going? When you answer Amsterdam, they will most likely deny you a Schengen departure stamp... because you are going from Norway (Schengen) to Netherlands (Schengen). So the clock never stops. And when you get to Amsterdam, you cannot re-stamp into Schengen because you are already "in" since your original French stamp. You simply never left, and the clock has been running all this time.
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Nigel Collin Studdart
Nigel Collin Studdart I would second Norway it’s absolutely stunning and well worth a whole summer . The fjords are spectacular as are the towns . You can then head across to southern island and then Scotland and play the Eu game as it eventuates followed by a trip to Galicia in NW Spain which is also absolutely stunning
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Odette Hasbun
Odette Hasbun Yes, that works. Departing Norway, you get six months in the UK. Properly departing the UK and arriving in the Republic of Ireland, you can get an additional 90 Irish days which are not Schengen.
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Kitty Cullina-Bessey
Kitty Cullina-Bessey Following
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Kjell Dreyer
Kjell Dreyer But be aware that Norway is not part of EU (only EEA) it is part of Schengen....
But a nice trip is up to Scotland, through the Caledonian canal, and then about 300 nm east over to Stavanger and then down south Norway, over to Skagen in Denmark and further down south including Copenhagen and eventually the Kiel canal... enjoy 😀
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Lea Obermeyer
Lea Obermeyer Kjell Dreyer absolutely correct. We would love to have spent some time in Norway but it is strangely part of the schengen.
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Odette Hasbun
Odette Hasbun Last summer we departed the Shetland islands, checked into Norway at Haugesund, traveled down the coast through Avaldsnes, Stavanger, the Lysefjord into Lysebotn, Brusand, Vestre Hua, and departed Norway from Mandal.
Entering Denmark at Thyborøn, we v…See More
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Peter Whatley
Peter Whatley Good question Kestrel. Good comments OCC
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Judith L. Jacobsen
Judith L. Jacobsen Don’t miss Norway if you come to Europe ❤️
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Dennis K. Biby
Dennis K. Biby I've puzzled over this for a couple of years. The UK is not in Schengen so 6 months (180 days) will restart your 90 day Schengen cruise. In my planning I would hit Schengen perhaps in mid-July then hop to Morocco for 30 of so days then back across the Atlantic.
Two crossings in one year but with your plan to stay in UK, could be two years.
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Peter Dunham
Peter Dunham We had also planned pacific pre-covid but that is on hold. The med has a huge amount to offer, don’t skip it. Greece alone has some fabulous destinations and amazing culture. Ok, there is no marine life to speak of but places like Delphi, epidaurus, hydra etc have been real global highlights.
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Lea Obermeyer
Lea Obermeyer Gibraltar is nonSchengen which is where we reset the Schengen clock. Some Spanish ports near Gibraltar may choose not to recognize it as nonSchengen but every other country does and all the other ports of Spain it is not a problem. Portugal use to be easy to get an extension that allows you to stay within their borders past Schengen time so you would still need to go to a nonSchengen area after.
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Victor Langerwerf
Victor Langerwerf Use Gibraltar, Marocco, Algeria, Albania, Turkey as non EU countries when crossing the Med!
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Kathleen McCallum
Kathleen McCallum Turkey sailing is fabulous. You could bounce back and forth for years. I am planning to ship my boat over in 2021 and sail Greece, Turkey and Croatia.
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Odette Hasbun
Odette Hasbun "We can only stay in the UK for 6 months out of every 12 months". This is not true. The UK does not count days.
Please consider the file available at:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/visit-guidance 

This is the "UK Home Office Visit Guidance manual"
On page 18, you will find the following statement:
« There is no specified maximum period which an individual can spend in the UK in any period such as ‘6 months in 12 months’. »
Of course, Border Force will take a very dim view of any yachtsmen abusing their welcome in Britain.
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Gus Wilson
Gus Wilson Odette, thanks for this. That has been the policy, but it has not been stated clearly in the past.
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Daria Blackwell
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Ian Park
Ian Park We went through Caledonian Canal last year but missed out Norway going through the Limfjord Canal in Denmark. Lovely trip.
And Hi to Odette who we met in Ireland!

Vice Commodore, OCC 

+x

 

Daria Blackwell - 3/9/2019

Americans to Apply for EU Travel Authorization starting 2021 US citizens will have to apply for an ETIAS prior to their travel towards Europe, in order to be allowed to enter the territory, starting January 1, 2021.[color=#4d4b4d][/color] CNN article explains why.  edited by DariaBlackwell on 3/9/2019 

ETIAS will not be mandatory until 2023. (as of March 2020)
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/etias-wont-be-mandatory-until-2023-official-sources-confirm/


Vice Commodore, OCC 

Americans to Apply for EU Travel Authorization starting 2021

US citizens will have to apply for an ETIAS prior to their travel towards Europe, in order to be allowed to enter the territory, starting January 1, 2021.
[color=#4d4b4d]
[/color]
[color=#4d4b4d]CNN article explains why. [/color]
[color=#4d4b4d]
[/color]
edited by DariaBlackwell on 3/9/2019
edited by DariaBlackwell on 3/9/2019

Vice Commodore, OCC 

Thank you very much Hasbun. That could be very helpful to say a US citizen who winters their boat in the UK. They could cruise to the Netherlands, Germany, Poland, Estonia, and Sweden for up to 90 days, then cruise Denmark and Norway for another 90 days before returning to England.

Best regards, Max

The laws are here in Norwegian:

1. The regulation itself. Section 1 discusses why Norway must make certain exceptions to the 90 in 180 days hard limit. Section 2.1 clarifies that these certain exceptions means applicable people can stay more than the 90 day Schengen limit. The final paragraph notes that stays in any Nordic country counts towards the extra 90 days (i.e., mirrors the Danish regs)
https://www.udiregelverk.no/en/documents/udi-circulars/rs-2010-080/#attachment

2. The last line in the regulation calls out to the list of applicable countries. Here is the list, which includes a bunch of American countries, all the way from Canada to Argentina, plus a number of Asian countries such as South Korea and Israel, plus Australia and NZ:
https://www.udiregelverk.no/en/documents/udi-circulars/rs-2010-080/rs-2010-080v/

The way this actually works is as follows: write an e-mail to UDI in English (their address is on their website). Cite the webpages above and your nationality. They will respond quite rapidly that yes, you can stay 90 extra days in Norway, but that if you go from Norway to any other Schengen country, you are in for a world of hurt, i.e., after your extra days, you need to take a direct flight or boat Oslo-US, Oslo-Bahrain, or Oslo-London.

You should also keep that e-mail with you because most Norwegian police logically don't know the rules and their first instinct will be to apprehend you if they catch you after the 90 day Schengen limit.

Most recent known e-mail received from UDI as described: 11/Sep/2017

Regards,
edited by Hasbun on 1/3/2018

Thank you for the clarification, Hasbun. If you could provide a link to the Norway law with the extension, I would appreciate it. I tried to find it but the page I found seems not to have the same exception as Denmark does. Thank you very much. Max
Link to what I found:

https://www.udi.no/en/want-to-apply/visit-and-holiday/to-visit-norway-without-a-visa/

Hello Max,

I know nothing of the Dutch allowance for Australians. While it may work for Aussies, I am pretty certain it does not apply to U.S. passport holders at all.

I was merely commenting on David Frost's post, who wrote, among other things: «[font=sans-serif]We are, as Australians, able to take advantage of a separate agreement between Australia and the Netherlands which permits us to stay in the Netherlands for 90 days after our Schengen period of 90 days expires, so long as we have not entered Netherlands during that period.[/font]»

David further wrote on an earlier post: «[font=sans-serif]I have confirmation from the Dutch Consulate that Australians are allowed 3 months in Netherlands upon entry not withstanding time spend in other Schengen areas. You may not arrive in Netherlands at any time previous to this or the 3 months will start ticking and does not stop.. So when we are done in Belgium we go to Netherlands but may not enter any other Schengen areas in this time because technically our Schengen visa is expired.[/font]»

By the way, the Danish 90-day extension is mirrored by Norwegian regulation, which makes perfect sense, when you think about the text of the Danish regulation I quoted. I can supply the source for the Norwegian law, if anyone is interested.

Best,

Hi Hasbun, thank you for pointing out the Danish 90-day allowance regardless of stays in other (non-Nordic) Schengen Countries. You mentioned that this applies to the Netherlands as well (“So you see, the Danish (like the Dutch) allow you an extra 90 days beyond Schengen...”)

I tried to find confirmation of this on the Netherland’s IND website, but have so far not been able to find anything that references this exception/extension to the 90 days. I frequently get asked about these issues, so would like to keep myself up to date. If possible could you share a link where I might find this?

I am living in the Netherlands with temporary residence under the “Dutch American Friendship Treaty” and occasionally get asked about these issues, so would like to keep up to date.

Many thanks and Happy New Year.
Max
edited by juanona on 1/1/2018

Hello David,

I am not convinced a 6 months in 12 accepted rule exists in the UK. I do believe frequent visitors who stay lengthy periods (within their approved leave to stay) will be subject to increased scrutiny upon further entry applications, and probably at some point subjected to issuance of abbreviated leaves to stay or flat out denied further entry. Certainly anyone engaging in so-called "visa runs" will be detected and probably banished for 1 to 10 years from further admittance into the UK.

But I don't think anyone will be penalized for staying the number of days that their stamp reads.

On another subject, the Greenland situation may arise as a result of the Nordic Passport Union (NPU) agreements. Another possible byproduct of the NPU is the following:
[ul][li]Citizens of certain countries are entitled to stay in Denmark for 90 days, [color=rgb(48, 73, 95)][font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]regardless of stays in other Schengen countries[/font][/color]

[color=rgb(48, 73, 95)][font=Verdana, Geneva, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Citizens of Australia, Canada, Chile, Israel, Japan, Malaysia, New Zealand, Singapore, South Korea and the US can freely enter and stay in Denmark for up to 90 days in any 180-day period, regardless of whether they have stayed in another Schengen country prior to entry into Denmark. The 90 days are counted from the entry date into Denmark or another Nordic country. If you have previously spent time in Denmark or another Nordic country within the previous 180 days, that time will be deducted from the 90-day maximum.[/font][/color][/li][/ul]
[ul][li]Source: Danish Immigration Service - [/li][li]https://www.nyidanmark.dk/en-us/coming_to_dk/visa/Visa_free_travel.htm[/li][/ul]

So you see, the Danish (like the Dutch) allow you an extra 90 days beyond Schengen, but for the purposes of determining "how long you have been in Denmark", they consider the territory of Denmark to include all Nordic countries, and quite probably the Faroes and Greenland as well.

Cheers,

Hello Dick and thanks for the info.
Hasbun. We fully concur with Dick on the matter of 6 months entry in the UK as an Australian non visa holder . 6 Months entry was granted to us in Shetland by a visiting immigration official. (We emailed before we left Norway.)
We were also treated with every courtesy by Customs and Immigration when we were boarded in Dover Strait, and when we discovered we had not completed entry requirements properly on our entry into Ireland from Azores. We received inaccurate advice but kept a record of times and places at which we received that advice. They "fixed" the problem, supplied the proper paperwork and completed it all at their office forwarding copies by email as our printer was not working at the time. Above and beyond the call of duty!!
All in all the Uk is very straightforward and easy. With 6 months in 12 being the accepted rule.
The Schengen countries are the real issue with 90 days during any 180 day period being the rule.
There seem to be a lot of misunderstandings, both by travellers and officials, and rule breakers as a consequence of the apparent fluidity of the application of the rules.
Then I read with interest the problem Destiny has just encountered in Greenland. Its not even Schengen and they seem to be applying the 90 days in any 180 days in Scandic Countries (this includes Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Faroe and Iceland) rule there too.
We are, as Australians, able to take advantage of a separate agreement between Australia and the Netherlands which permits us to stay in the Netherlands for 90 days after our Schengen period of 90 days expires, so long as we have not entered Netherlands during that period. (This would start their clock)
It is all very confusing and requires a lot of close clock watching to remain strictly legal.
Good luck
Kris n David




[quote=Hasbun]Hello David,

Assuming everything looks alright, a non-visa-required foreigner is usually granted leave to stay of 6 months in the UK on initial arrival.

However, when we arrived in the Isles of Scilly in 2015 and called the National Yachtline to report our arrival, we were granted admission in the UK and yet our passports were not stamped. So, if one does not have evidence of how long one's leave of stay is, how can one substantiate the legality of one's stay? We only stayed in the UK for a few days before sailing for Brest.

Did you get stamps on your passport when you arrived in Shetland? How long is your leave of stay?

Cheers,

OH
At anchor, Marmaris[/quote]