Posted on Behalf of Dick
Hi Charles,

Thanks for the field report. I am surprised that you had trouble setting your appropriately sized Rocna as that is a function that it usually does superbly. As to the re-setting, this seems to be a problem with Rocnas which rarely, but occasionally, occurs and you are not alone in switching to a Spade.

I applaud your moving up a size as weight in the anchor pays huge dividends in keeping the boat in one place: far more benefit than any downside of adding 11 pounds to the bow.

As to swivels, not only are they contraindicated if they are stainless steel (which, to my evaluation), has no business in a ground tackle system, but they increase complexity and serve no function (see swivel area in Forum for details).

It is wise to have the end-of-chain securing rope emerge onto the deck for being able to quickly cut: make sure that the knot attaching rope (especially as you specify heavy line) to chain is executed in a fashion to not hang up on its way to the deck. I have a visible indication on the chain about 3 meters from the end to make sure I am prepared for the rope to emerge as the chain can be coming out fast in a dump.

As to a polyprop floating line, trip lines and their cousins are a complex subject, again addressed elsewhere in the forum.

My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

Hi Ian,
Please see my comments to Charles in prior email with regard to securing ropes and where to find pros & cons of the variations on trip line.
I agree with Alex as to the functionally of even minimally altered anchors: it may be fine, but not an area to fool with.
I would hope that Spade would replace the shaft at a reasonable price. They are one of the few anchors where it is reasonable to buy parts, so I hope they are easy to work with in this area. I was impressed with their response to the rust on my very well used 8 years old Spade last year when they just replaced it. (Early Spades were not well galvanized, a largely cosmetic issue, and they allowed me to keep the old anchor which is now a spare.)
Let us know how this unfolds, if you will.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

Hi Ian

Thanks so much for the good words. The idea of the yellow polypropylene line is to make it easy and quick to loose the bower. There usually isn 't time to tie on a fender, and I would not want someone else to retrieve my anchor or investigate my fender. The light line makes it inconspicuous and unlikely for another boat to foul in the conditions forcing me to loose the bower.
I don 't trust all the connections necessary for a swivel. One shackle is enough for me. My chain runs through a chain lock, and then under a roller with a square notch that fits the chain, then over a roller at the bow. So it 's always retrieved without a twist by time the anchor is under the bow.

Best wishes,
Charles Starke
s/v Dawnpiper

Hi Ian & Charles
As an anchor marker/trip line I would recommend a sinking (nylon) rope with a buoy. a floating line is always asking for trouble. Just go anywhere that there are lobster or crab fishermen to see what it is like. As I believe I mentioned earlier, we also add 1/2 pound lead weight about 2m down the line just to be sure that the top end of the line is vertical.

Ian: please bear in mind that any bent or damaged anchor cannot and will not perform as intended by the manufacturer.
Also: the most common way that anchors are bent is by the skipper powering over the anchor in the ill-conceived notion that this is the best way to break it out of the bottom.

Just a thank you to Charles for the tip on ensuring the bulkhead attachment just appears above deck. I can see the enormous value in not having to race below with knife in hand to lose the anchor! Just a slight concern with the 50ft floating line and the danger to any boat 's propeller? Wouldn 't a handy fender be a better retrieval marker?
I have a Spade and a Rocna. Both so far have been equally impressive. However the hollow shank on the Spade has bent slightly, probably when caught on a rock at the change of tide.
In relation to swivels (I do use one) it is important to check frequently that the securing screw does not work loose, but equally importantly that there are a few links of chain between the anchor shank and the swivel. If the swivel is connected directly to the shank it can impose a sideways pull across the swivel joint rather than maintaining an in line pull.

I am trying to post this on the OCC forum chain discussion but it doesn 't work. Would you please post it for me? Thanks

Best wishes,
Charles
s/v Dawnpiper

Hi:
I want to add several comments and suggestions. I also had problems getting my Rocna 88 lb anchor to set unless backing extremely slowly. S/v Dawnpiper is a Trintella 47, 40,000 lbs.
The Rocna also failed to reset when the tide turned, and I dragged. I was so disappointed in the Rocna that I switched to a galvanized Spade 99 lbs. I do not use a swivel as I have seen failures in stainless swivels The chain is stabiled by a roller with a notch in it for the chain so it never seems to come up twisted, or need a swivel. My spare is the Spade aluminum 66 lb, and kedge is the Fortress Fox-37.
I concur with Dick that the Morgan 's Cloud AAC site is excellent: everyone could benefit from the careful discussion there.
The end of my chain is attached by a heavy line to a bulkhead below with the length adjusted to keep and ensure the chain stays on the gypsy. A 50 foot length of yellow polypropylene 1/4 inch line is affixed to the end of the chain. I can cut the heavy securing line at deck level if I ever have to loose my bower in an emergency, and the polypropylene floating line allows later easy retrieval.
Best wishes
Charles Starke, s/v Dawnpiper

Hi Simon,
Thanks for the clarification. The guidelines you spell out are right in line with what I consider reasonable and right in line the type of atmosphere in which I want to participate.
Thanks, Dick

Hi Peter,
You are very welcome. I am sorry that this discussion went, as Alex says, a bit sideways, although some important (to me) clarifications emerged. I hope it did not unduly derail any questions or thoughts you may have had. Please let us know what choices you make down the line.
My best, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy

Alex & Dick,

From my perspective as Forum moderator I am always delighted to accept both of your contributions to this Forum as these contributions are always thoughtful, thought provoking and based on decades of experience.

I would just like to correct a possible misunderstanding. Unlike the OCC Facebook page the OCC Forum has never banned commercial use or self promotion. Indeed it contains many links to items for sale etc. From time to time we have even allowed guest posts by businesses where the post is clearly in the member 's interests. Unlike FB we do not risk being plagued by a deluge of dubious worth and if we were it would be easily dealt with by Moderation. I know these things were much discussed during the summer on Facebook and I think that is where some of the confusion arises but I am happy to say that the Forum is, and hopefully will remain, far less regulated.

Please both continue to share your experiences and make this Forum a vibrant and useful resource for our members. I know that our members are discerning enough to distinguish between genuine advice based on real life experience and shallow commercial interest. To date I have seen none of the latter.

If we need to discuss a perceived need to increase the rules within this Forum then we can open a separate thread to discuss this elsewhere. I suggest the "Development" thread. However I firmly believe that additional regulation is not required as this Forum is not as vulnerable as our FB page.

Thank you both for your excellent posts.

Simon

Hi Alex,
I respectfully suggest the issue not be closed. It is certainly not from my point of view.
There are a couple of issues:
The most important one is the undermining my comments and suggestions on the OCC site. I participate solely on the OCC Forum to convey the best information and thoughts I have when members ask questions, and I try to differentiate the two. If you think the directions I point have problematic elements for the handling of our vessels, then, by all means, challenge my thinking. If you think other venues have better information, please direct the reader to the site and the specific area where the relevant information resides.
But please do not undermine my suggestions. If I wish to suggest that someone might benefit from a source of information where I have absolutely no commercial interests, I would want to not have that interfered with any more than I would want censored a suggestion that someone might consider buying a product such as a Spade anchor (or a Rocna or a swivel etc.). I would also want to be free, and have others be free, to mention the benefits of reading yours and Daria’s book or reading another book by an OCC member (or any other book, magazine, web site) if I considered them likely to benefit cruising knowledge.
As an aside, I would think that AAC would be just the kind of endeavor that OCC would support. The site is solely to promote offshore sailing especially in challenging areas (high latitude) where the principles have much experience. AAC’s principles are OCC members. Membership fees are quite modest and were instituted to cover expenses for the running of the site. I would suspect that an evaluation of their per/hour earnings, if any, would be laughable or in the negative realm. That the AAC is rapidly becoming (there already in my evaluation) the premier go-to site for honest expert evaluations of products/techniques/safety pertaining to offshore sailing: all that and more makes the site a no brainer in my mind for many OCC members.
But evaluation of sites aside: again, my interest is just to have the freedom to convey to any reader the best information and thoughts I have that promotes cruising. I find any restrictions in doing so not in the best interests of the OCC nor of its members. I welcome challenges to my thinking and conclusions, but I resist restrictions and censorship such as you feel inclined to impose. I believe this is important and is not closed.
Respectfully submitted, Dick Stevenson, s/v Alchemy